Thread Number: 23957
New EU Regs |
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Post# 268283   2/18/2014 at 02:18 (3,711 days old) by glenste (England)   |   | |
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Does anyone know whether the new EU regs for vacuum cleaners due this year apply to vacuum sold from 1st September or manufactured from 1st September? |
Post# 268284 , Reply# 1   2/18/2014 at 03:19 (3,711 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)   |   | |
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It would be manufactured, They can't change machines already made, and there is always old sock too.
Are they actually been implemented ? I sort of wonder how this will affect country's like mine who feed off production lines from EU and machines designed for EU that don't have this legislation.
South Africans are seriously power hungry if its not 2000watts it doesn't sell. I wonder how this will effect our market it will be interesting to see. |
Post# 268286 , Reply# 2   2/18/2014 at 04:34 (3,711 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Yup.
All cleaners manufactured after 01st September 2014 will be limited to 1600w and all vacuums manufactured after 01st September 2017 will be limited to 900w. Numatic are, as far as I am aware, the first manufacturer to make a machine to fit in with the new legistlation, which is rated at 650w, but with a twin fan motor so it actually has 10% increased suction over the current 1200w model. This post was last edited 02/18/2014 at 04:59 |
Post# 268287 , Reply# 3   2/18/2014 at 04:59 (3,711 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)   |   | |
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Post# 268291 , Reply# 4   2/18/2014 at 06:51 (3,711 days old) by watsonw (Newport, Shropshire, UK)   |   | |
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......I thought that the likes of numatics had always been fitted with two fans; if they had then the motor wattages would never had to be 1000 plus!!!!!!!! |
Post# 268292 , Reply# 5   2/18/2014 at 06:57 (3,711 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Completely agree with you, Gareth.
These cheaply made, high wattage cleaners are a cheap cop-out for not having to done any R&D and being able to cut back on costs by using cheaper motors. The Hoover Purepower is a perfect example - it started as a fairly decent 1200w upright and is now a cheap heap of flimsey plastic with a 2100w screaming motor in it. Remember the days when all we needed was 300w and a decent brushroll? All those Hoover Junior and Lux 500 owners never complained about filthy carpets. |
Post# 268298 , Reply# 7   2/18/2014 at 07:54 (3,711 days old) by ultraperformer (Derbyshire, UK, Europe)   |   | |
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Post# 268318 , Reply# 8   2/18/2014 at 11:19 (3,711 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)   |   | |
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One thing to realize is that manufacturers are going to build in obsolescence into these motors They wont be the same as motors of old. 2000 watt motor will spin at about 30 000 rpm were as a 500 watt motor about 10 000 or there abouts, The lower the wattage the slower the motor the longer they last. That's a issue for the manufacturers. |
Post# 268323 , Reply# 9   2/18/2014 at 12:00 (3,711 days old) by AlexHoovers94 (Manchester UK)   |   | |
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Post# 268324 , Reply# 10   2/18/2014 at 12:06 (3,711 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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The other thing to remember and has been pointed out before is that the voltage is different in the U.S, so whilst Miele in the UK and Europe list the S8 as having 2200 watts, the equivalent Miele's in the U.S are listed as 1200.
Though interestingly the SEBO X4 from SEBO's U.S website is listed as 1300, same as the UK ones.. |
Post# 268356 , Reply# 11   2/18/2014 at 14:47 (3,711 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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A watt is a watt is a watt, no matter the voltage.
1200 watts in the U.S is the same as 1200 watts in the U.K. Only the voltage is different!
The Miele S8 in Europe and the U.K. has a more powerful 2200w motor than the S8 in the U.S.
Vacuum cleaners in the U.S. are restricted to 1200 watts max. and have been so for a few years now. That is why Miele is restricted to 1200 watts for the U.S. version of the S8. |
Post# 268396 , Reply# 12   2/18/2014 at 15:58 (3,711 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Ah, thank you for the explanation.
However I wonder then how SEBO manage to get around the fact that the X4 in the U.S has 1300 watts? The Felix 1 and 2 in the U.S is also rated at 1300 watts and 200 or 175 watts for the PN alone. Add that together and you have 1475 watts or 1500 watts. Even the G2 "manual" SEBO upright has 1300 watts. The SEBO K series, K2 Kombi & D4 appears to have 1250 watts. But then there's also the 175 or 200 watt PN's to add on, if applicable. How can that be the case then if vacuums are restricted to 1200 watts? Clearly those SEBO models have more than 1200 at the motor discounting the PN's?? |
Post# 268412 , Reply# 13   2/18/2014 at 18:00 (3,711 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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Post# 268468 , Reply# 15   2/19/2014 at 02:02 (3,710 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Well said Benny.
I have to admit that my next door neighbour's son is the local repairer for all appliances in our area including vacuums. Burnt out motors are a rare occurrence.
Even when you see other threads on here of "sidewalk rescues," where collectors are finding vacuums that have been turfed, photos on here reveal major clogs that owners can't be bothered to clean out.
You even get some unusual and fairly expensive vacuums that have been chucked out - cue the SEBO/Windsor upright that one of the members found recently on a kerbside. |
Post# 268628 , Reply# 17   2/20/2014 at 03:25 (3,709 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)   |   | |
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Burnt out motors are the most common problem we find in my workshop, on the cheaper vacs like the Electrolux pet lover the motor just burns out as it cannot get enough air to cool it through the clogged filter, Mieles too burn out allot. mainly due to burst bags that clogg the filter and the new synthetic bags that leak dust. I would say we recycle at least 1000 motors a month possibly more |
Post# 269080 , Reply# 19   2/23/2014 at 10:37 (3,706 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 269082 , Reply# 20   2/23/2014 at 10:42 (3,706 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)   |   | |
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Post# 269268 , Reply# 21   2/24/2014 at 17:25 (3,705 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Miele in the Czech market have a new Miele S8 Silence Plus "Ecoline" S8390 - it is different to the S8390 that the UK has - this one has a new Eco 700 watt motor.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO sebo_fan's LINK This post was last edited 02/24/2014 at 17:42 |
Post# 269278 , Reply# 22   2/24/2014 at 18:33 (3,705 days old) by hi-loswitch98 ()   |   | |
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Won't the new Vacuums from September 2014 cost more due to more effort put into designing them in the first place? |
Post# 269282 , Reply# 23   2/24/2014 at 19:17 (3,705 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 269336 , Reply# 24   2/25/2014 at 03:36 (3,704 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)   |   | |
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I think the price of vacuum cleaners will rocket. I think we won't see much for sale under the £50 mark. I would also welcome that. |
Post# 269339 , Reply# 25   2/25/2014 at 04:23 (3,704 days old) by hi-loswitch98 ()   |   | |
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I agree VR. Hopefully the price will go up & when a belt snaps or filters get clogged people won't chuck it out first chance they get. |
Post# 269340 , Reply# 26   2/25/2014 at 04:46 (3,704 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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I don't welcome that.
Why? Because even if brands lower vacuum cleaner wattage, there's no telling what the other quality will be like. Currently washing machines are becoming cheaper to buy all the time with brands like BEKO soon going into the middle priced range and Currys/BUSH/Argos probably releasing budget brand versions. I think the auction sites may become busier as a result. |
Post# 269368 , Reply# 27   2/25/2014 at 13:43 (3,704 days old) by kirbymodel2c (Nottingham, England)   |   | |
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Hi, I get quit a good percentage of vacs come in with burnt out motors. So I wouldn't say it's rare at all. I get lots of Dysons coming in with burnt out motors but there normally worth repairing as long as the bodies are in decent condition. I was working on a DC19 Argos exclusive today that needed a new motor. The cheaper vacs when the motor goes tend not to make it in to the shop in the first place. There not normally worth repairing which I'd say most people guess before throwing it out.
Allot of the cheaper vacs that do make it in come in with cord issues and the body falling to bits like the brush roll melting and seizing up. As well as the usual blockages and not cleaning filters etc which are common place. I'm guessing when the new regs come in the new motors and bodies will still fail. We'll soon find out
James |
Post# 269370 , Reply# 28   2/25/2014 at 14:20 (3,704 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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So, of the vacuums that come in "burnt out," one could summize and say that even if Dyson are expensive, owners aren't maintaining their vacuums, or if they are, they're still liable to burn out? No wonder Dyson isn't as reliable as other brands.
Have you ever dealt with bagged vacuums suffering similar burn out? |
Post# 269390 , Reply# 29   2/25/2014 at 15:37 (3,704 days old) by kirbymodel2c (Nottingham, England)   |   | |
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Yep I still get bagged vacs in with burnt out motors. From the Miele & Sebo end to the cheaper bagged vacs like the Panasonic uprights but more bagless vacs than bagged ones. This could be partly down to more bagless vacs being sold now.
I would say it's a mix of the manufacturers not wanting the motor to last to long with average use and people not maintaining their vacs as well as abusing them. In bagged vacs I still see people fishing dirt out their bags to keep reusing them. Or surprised you can't suck up large object with out them becoming stuck. My supplier had another lady in last week who was surprised you had to empty the vacuum. I had a DC41 in last year that had 8 months of doing the "shake n vac" that had killed off the motor. I wonder if they read the instructions?
James
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Post# 269796 , Reply# 30   3/1/2014 at 07:10 (3,700 days old) by madaboutsebo (Midlands, UK)   |   | |
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Just having a look around at the SEBO UK and German websites I noticed on the German SEBO website the arrival of the start of their Eco vacuums in the form of the SEBO K Series as Ryan state they where working on some Eco Models. They come in 3 models:
SEBO Airbelt K1 ECO 1200 SEBO Airbelt K1 ECO 700 SEBO Airbelt K3 ECO Comfort Motor wattage ranges from 700 to 1200 watts as stated above in the model line up. Looks like there is new airbelt designs too! The 700 watt falls into the second phase of the EU Regs of 900 watts and the other 2 within this years 1600 watts. Be interesting to see how the 700 watt K Series performs. Be interesting to see what other models in the SEBO line up have the Eco range added! I wonder if any completely new models emerge too!? Note: The pictures they have put on there might be old as the wattage on the machine states 1500 and 2100 when you take a look at each model! |
Post# 269878 , Reply# 31   3/1/2014 at 17:49 (3,700 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 269928 , Reply# 32   3/2/2014 at 02:53 (3,699 days old) by madaboutsebo (Midlands, UK)   |   | |
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Thanks Ryan. I only noticed it as I went to check out the SEBO Germany website as well as the UK and there they where on the home page! I wonder what SEBO UK will bring us out of those 3 K Series models from Germany?
That's a nice looking cylinder from AEG, take its a bag version? Looks like some manufacturers are choosing to go for the lower wattage to meet the new regs in 2017 now rather than wait which is not a bad thing. Would like to see how they perform these 700 watt vacuums should be ok? I don't have my Felix on full, only occasionally on hard floors for an extra boost! |
Post# 269933 , Reply# 33   3/2/2014 at 04:31 (3,699 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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The K Eco models are relatively new and haven't yet been tested or bought. (those with the 700 watt or 1200 watt models with the electronic suction slider control on the handle).
However the Miele S8 Silence Plus has been tested and bought by some buyers in the EU and it gets top marks - that has 700 watts too. |
Post# 269937 , Reply# 34   3/2/2014 at 05:08 (3,699 days old) by madaboutsebo (Midlands, UK)   |   | |
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I'm sure they will do fine. That's interesting to know about the Miele S8 Silence Plus thanks for that info. Sounds promising for the new Eco SEBO K models 700 and 1200 watts.
From what you can see on the SEBO German website doesn't look like they have changed or redesigned the floor heads or anything else other than changed the motor. If that's the case and they perform well like the Miele S8 then that will be great. Wonder if a 700, 800 or 900 watt Felix or X series will appear! Well the original X1 was 800 or 900 watts wasn't it? |
Post# 269939 , Reply# 35   3/2/2014 at 07:27 (3,699 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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It was but it was released at a time when "power hungry" vacs started to come on the market. SEBO have already given a new floor head to some of the Eco models, featured on the D2 series, as yet not available in the UK. Its a Wessel werk floor head that Miele first featured with their S4 Ecoline.
It wouldn't be hard for SEBO to lower the motor on the Felix, but getting around the PN floor head may be harder. As for the X1 - well, as the owner of one - there is minimal difference of suction between that and the X1.1 Perhaps SEBO will lower the watts, but to be fair, both the Felix and the X are already low enough with their existing range. I'm more interested to see how Miele would tackle with their S7. Knowing that it has 1800 watts already. |
Post# 269951 , Reply# 36   3/2/2014 at 10:45 (3,699 days old) by madaboutsebo (Midlands, UK)   |   | |
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I did wonder if they had changed anything else other than the motor wattage. Will take a look.
That's true suppose the PN will have to be taken into account. That's good to know the X1verses the X1.1. I was jumping the gun a bit and thinking what SEBO will do for when the 2017 regs come in but that's a few years off yet and things could change! Yes that will be an interesting one for Miele the S7. It does have a complex air path from floor to bag and bag through to motor and out of the machine! Suppose that's down to the swivel head design. I wonder if they have a replacement in mind already or working on one or just lower the motor wattage to meet the 2014 regs for now! |
Post# 269954 , Reply# 38   3/2/2014 at 11:55 (3,699 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Thing is, there are vacuums that presently have 900 watts and even lower- but they come under the vintage line! One that I see quite regularly is the Hoover wet and dry canister - 900 watts clearly written along the main body.
By 2017, I don't think any company will be able to sell anything at 1600 watts. If brands start producing 700 to 900 watts now and within the EU law, they won't have to change much. However, they will have to redesign key elements and probably, yes it may well mean they have to spend a bit of money - but its about time they did this. Some brands charge too much any way at cost prices! |
Post# 269984 , Reply# 39   3/2/2014 at 16:05 (3,699 days old) by madaboutsebo (Midlands, UK)   |   | |
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True Vintagerepairer it's going to cost company's money anyway for the changes why do it twice might as well only do it once which will I suppose cost less. Never the less will cost them to make the changes.
Looking at what is starting to come out it's certainly looks that way. Most will be under 900 watts well before 2017 and before this years ruling too. |
Post# 270727 , Reply# 41   3/8/2014 at 12:28 (3,693 days old) by madaboutsebo (Midlands, UK)   |   | |
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They will expect the manufacturers to come up with something that works on 900 watts or below. Doesn't Dyson's 600/700 watt DC50 or the DC24 use an air driven mini turbo brush? I know they are uprights but they are lower wattage. Just a thought!
What about cylinders and uprights that use 2 motors how does that fall into the 900 watt regs? Is it both combined? I can't remember the regs I read mention dual motors will have to take another look. |
Post# 270730 , Reply# 43   3/8/2014 at 12:36 (3,693 days old) by madabouthoovers ()   |   | |
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Then again, I have so many vacs over 900W I never need to worry, as they will probably last me the rest of my life without ever having to buy another vac again! |
Post# 270746 , Reply# 44   3/8/2014 at 16:39 (3,693 days old) by madaboutsebo (Midlands, UK)   |   | |
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Sorry I knew you where on about the larger floor heads I was thinking if a smaller version could work on a lower wattage motor the manufacturers surely could come up with something for the large floor head.
That's what I was thinking the 900 watts would probably include both power head and main unit added together. 750 watts might be ok for the main unit if the rest was used for the power head. Certainly would be, time to start getting them dirt fan vacs out the closet then!!! I bet there are!!! They can carry on as normal! That's you sorted then for the future! |
Post# 270765 , Reply# 45   3/8/2014 at 18:22 (3,693 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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I have to say though - when I had my Hoover TP2 Autosense, it literally flew with a mini 32mm universal mini turbo brush on its short hose. Now the TP2 had 800 watts total, so, figure on that.
By all means, try it yourselves if any of you own a vintage cylinder or upright with a hose on it - you might be surprised. It reiterates that whilst current offerings aren't as well built as they used to be. Because if that generic 32 mm pet hair turbo brush spins extremely fast, then who really needs to buy "eco" badged vacuums when vintage ones come along with the amount of power that ironically, the EU law is trying to sustain? |
Post# 270778 , Reply# 47   3/8/2014 at 19:27 (3,693 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Of the ones I now have, the only high power vacs I have is my Miele S5211 (2200 watts), SEBO D2 Total (2100 watts), K3 Premium (1800 watts) and my new Miele S8340 Ecoline, which ironically even with a 1200 watt motor, will still sit "outside" the new law.
Of the uprights, SEBO Felix at 1300 watts, Hoover Slalom at 1200 watts, SEBO X1 Auto at 850 watts and Vax VCU02 at 450 watts. |
Post# 270836 , Reply# 48   3/9/2014 at 11:40 (3,692 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 272910 , Reply# 49   3/21/2014 at 19:05 (3,680 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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I had a flash of memory go by when talking to a friend of mine earlier about stick vacuums in the UK.
Clearly when you look at the stick vacuums "of old" when they were sold here, most had 500 watts to 900 watts max. Only a few had brush rolls and effectively you could say that the Vax Mach Air original model is like a redesigned stick vacuum and upright all in one due to its size and shape, or latterly Dyson's DC24. So, what is stopping brands that produce corded stick vacuums already in Europe from selling them in the UK? Hoover have plenty of corded stick vacs as do Bosch and others. They may well have tiny bag capacities, but I can forsee that perhaps bagged and bagless corded stick vacs may be returning to the UK. That way, the EU law is satisfied and every possibility of uprights "becoming smaller" could be done without much of a redesign. |
Post# 273012 , Reply# 51   3/22/2014 at 16:41 (3,679 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 273518 , Reply# 53   3/26/2014 at 10:19 (3,675 days old) by Ultimatevacman ( Leeds, West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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As I've said before, I completely welcome this new law. Vacuums will be quieter, designed better, and hopefully, will last longer. The only downside I can see is they will get more expensive, but I suppose it's not a bad thing, as it may stop people from chucking away a vac they bought for £50 every year and buying another one.
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Post# 273526 , Reply# 55   3/26/2014 at 12:31 (3,675 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 273616 , Reply# 56   3/26/2014 at 23:08 (3,675 days old) by spiraclean (UK)   |   | |
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For the most part, few if any vacuum cleaner manufacturers are still in the business of making their own motors. They are generally outsourced to a third party company, each of whom offer a vast selection of models with varying specifications. It will be they who redesign motors to suit the upcoming legislation, with vacuum manufacturers continuing to simply buy them "off the shelf" as they always have done before. This may mean they end up paying a few extra pounds for each motor, which will undoubtedly be passed along to the consumer somewhere along the line, but the vacuum manufacturers themselves will not necessarily have to sink millions into R&D as far as motor technology is concerned. All they need do is ask their supplier to provide a motor that uses X number of watts and gives Y amount of suction, wait for them to arrive and then start slapping them into cleaners on their assembly lines.
Something tells me Numatic may have been working alongside their motor supplier to come up with a particular specification for their upcoming models, and have it ready for market at such an early stage, hence their large spend on this project. I cannot see the price of a Henry going up however, because the £100-ish price point (give or take a tenner) is so firmly established now. They are far more likely IMHO to recoup the R&D costs by tacking an extra quid or two onto other products they sell, or trimming costs elsewhere. Dyson will most likely continue further down the digital motor route. The more this ends up costing the better as far as they are concerned; it serves as fodder for the gadget blogs, which in turn boost sales amongst those who simply must have the latest and greatest "technology". Whether or not it actually keeps the house any cleaner is besides the point, but then it always was. If you think their £430 upright and £460 cylinder are expensive already, wait til they stick a digital motor in them. It will be just the push needed to break through the £500 price ceiling. |