Thread Number: 22597
Bagless Canister Design Question
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Post# 252578   10/11/2013 at 11:45 (3,843 days old) by tylerawells (-)        

So, it seems like now most bagless canisters are using a bottom hose insert (see example image of Hoover S3865 WindTunnel Anniversary Edition Canister).  Why are they doing this for bagless machines? In the 90s the Fantom Lighting (sample image provided from Google Images) had a top hose insert, and most of your bagged canisters also have a top hose insert. In my opinion the bottom hose connection makes the machine less versatile when you want to clean up high and the canister begins to tip back. Is it a way to increase cleaning power or just a way to get cheaper manufacturing costs?


Post# 252579 , Reply# 1   10/11/2013 at 11:46 (3,843 days old) by tylerawells (-)        
Hoover S3865

And here is the Hoover S3865 WindTunnel Anniversary Edition Canister


Post# 252581 , Reply# 2   10/11/2013 at 13:24 (3,843 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
I know tom has said it before but

blackheart's profile picture
The fantom lightning had a weak airflow to it because of the narrow passageway into the dust cup at the very front you had this curved plastic piece which was the inlet and a guide for the incoming air.

Post# 252584 , Reply# 3   10/11/2013 at 14:42 (3,843 days old) by dysonman1 (the county)        
@tyler

dysonman1's profile picture
That's not a Hoover Anniversary Edition canister - the Anniversary Edition uses bags. The machine pictured is the Platinum Edition, which is an excellent vacuum but ONLY in the hands of someone who's careful, as the neck on the power nozzle is the weak spot.

Many people pull their vacuums by the hose, up the stairs as they clean. With a top mounted hose (like the Fantom), you had tremendous failure at that point - we replaced tons of the top handle and swivel assemblies due to failure at the swivel. With a bottom mounted hose, the machine can be easily pulled up stairs and is much easier to 'turn on a dime' than with the top mounted hose.


Post# 252587 , Reply# 4   10/11/2013 at 14:58 (3,843 days old) by tylerawells (-)        

I know it is the Platnium series, its my daily driver - I don't know why I have been wanting to call it the Anniversary Edition. Thanks for the clarification.


Post# 252611 , Reply# 5   10/11/2013 at 16:38 (3,843 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

The picture at the top of the page of that Fantom is the replica of the Dyson DC02 that the Americans never got. Mr Dyson must have sold the design to the USA, as Dysons were not available in the USA till after 2001 with the DC07.

The DC02 was not a popular vac in the UK and the DC05 which replaced it had the hose connection at the bottom of the unit as opposed to the top.

 

UK Dyson DC02:


Post# 252614 , Reply# 6   10/11/2013 at 16:46 (3,843 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

A Dyson DC05 (Not available in the USA):


Post# 252618 , Reply# 7   10/11/2013 at 17:50 (3,843 days old) by tylerawells (-)        

I believe the story as far as Fantom goes (and I just picked that one because it was the one I could remember off the top of my head for having a top mounted house insert) is that Dyson licensed the rights to manufacture and sell his technology under the Fantom name for the US & Canadian market. In 2001 when James Dyson got fed up with Fantom's greed ($75 for a HEPA filter etc...), he chose to pull the Licensing Agreement & move ahead with directly entering the US / Canadian market. Those early Dyson canisters are really neat looking.


Post# 252620 , Reply# 8   10/11/2013 at 18:09 (3,843 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

I had a feeling I had heard something about what you said with the licencing agreements. Dyson thought Fantom were greedy did he? Pot calling the kettle black springs to mind lol

 

Early Dysons pre 2001 were very bright and colourful affairs, but the DC05 above (DC05 Clear) was not even available in the UK either. We got the DC03 and DC02 Clear but I think the DC05 clear was a Europe only limited edition.

The very early limited editions like the DeStijl and Antarctic Solo canisters will be very collectable in the future. The green DC02 shown above is an extremely rare DC02 ReCyclone, and one of these in excellent condition will be worth a fortune in the years to come.

Sadly Dyson has gone way downhill nowadays with build quality and the limited editions of the past are no longer available. Dyson has moved on from the lurid colours of the 90's and early 00's and quite frankly has become boring, with the model numbers changing that fast we will reach DC1,000 before long.

The DC08 (I think) was the most popular Dyson canister, and these still sell well on eBay today.

I just cant see the point of putting the ball on a canister vac, and its just a bit of a gimmick really. The Ball canisters and other micro canisters he designed seem very cheap and nasty, but the price is far from cheap!

 

This model was a very pretty affair and I always liked the DeStijl colour scheme - A DC02 DeStijl:


Post# 252706 , Reply# 9   10/12/2013 at 15:17 (3,842 days old) by tylerawells (-)        

I have never used a Dyson, but seeing these early models is pretty interesting. I do like the colors on the DeStijl model. I wish manufacturers as a whole would get back to bolder colors, now it's grey, black, or white and that's it.


Post# 252714 , Reply# 10   10/12/2013 at 16:04 (3,842 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Times and fashions have moved on, and Dyson now seems to be more into the technology and over-engineering of his machines.

The early models were simple and easy to repair and maintain, and quite frankly I liked them a lot.

Here's an example of other "Clear models" we got in the UK. These were really stunning machines to look at, and back in the 90's they were so futuristic they looked like machines off Star Trek.

 

DC02 and DC03(upright) Clear:


Post# 252716 , Reply# 11   10/12/2013 at 16:10 (3,842 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

The above DC03, was an interesting design as it had to canisters - one for the dirt and one for the oversized HEPA filters. Here is one belonging to me, in the standard colourway, next to a DC04 DeStijl. Both of these models were not available in the USA


Post# 252719 , Reply# 12   10/12/2013 at 16:16 (3,842 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Here is a pic of the range from DC04, DC07, DC14 and DC15.

The DC04 on the left is another limited edition in magenta and purple - a very pretty machine.

The DC15 is the first Dyson that really became over-engineered and far too complex. The first of the Ball cleaners launched in 2005. From then on, colours became more dumbed down, and canisters became smaller, as people complained that they wanted more compact vacs.


Post# 252720 , Reply# 13   10/12/2013 at 16:23 (3,842 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

"as people complained that they wanted more compact vacs."

Is this really so? I was given to understand that it was James Dyson who decided what consumers wanted. That DC26 creation was to satisfy Dyson's desire to make a cleaner which would, inexplicably, fit on a sheet of A4 paper. Why this size, I don't know.

Also, the DC23 and 32 cleaner was not at all small in stature. I agree with all that has been said; Dyson cleaners are too over-engineered now. The ball-cylinder really is a gimmick. A longer hose would have made the cleaning process easier, more so than a ball. But where is the technology in making a hose longer?


Post# 252721 , Reply# 14   10/12/2013 at 16:25 (3,842 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Here is what I mean about dumbing down of colours - the DC19 here that I sold last year, is a revision of the DC08, but has now become more dull and dark grey. The wand also changed to all plastic and became to flexible as a result. The hose was also too short and it just didn't seem as good quality as earlier DC08's had been. I sold this vac as I just didn't like it in comparison to the earlier DC08 which had a metal wand, and the DC08 was also a more colourful model, although not as much so as the earlier DC05. Dyson rarely sold a power head model either in the UK, we always seemed to be offered turbo brush heads driven by the airflow.

 

The DC19 Animal:


Post# 252722 , Reply# 15   10/12/2013 at 16:27 (3,842 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Benny - What I meant is that people complained that the DC15 was far too heavy, and other canisters too cumbersome to lug up the stairs, so Dyson set about making everything smaller and lighter. With the DC24 and DC50 and the DC26 (Wood and Wool) he went to far and made models akin to kids toys.


Post# 252724 , Reply# 16   10/12/2013 at 16:47 (3,842 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Hi there. Thank you for this, but what I mean is, to whom did they complain? Was it to Dyson? This I did not know you see, and I very much appreciate what you've said.

The 'dumbing down' of colours is merely an example of James Dyson taking a sensible business decision. Yes, the cleaners do indeed look much less vibrant and exciting, but I think the days when the "brand" needed to be promoted with a highly coloured identity is long gone. Also, the more models which use the same colour parts, the cheaper the process is, as there is no need to run off batches of coloured stock and then have the bother of storing them all ready for assembly, and further more for spares. It never ceased to amaze me the lengths which Dyson went to in attempting to colour co-ordinate his cleaners, right down to the mains leads. It was an expensive exercise and frankly was an over-kill. When the bulk of many of his cleaners was always grey, it was logical to use this colour as his base for all generic parts.

However, Dyson is of course not alone in attempting the co-ordinated route; whilst it was very common during the 1960's and early 1970's to do this, by the end of the 70's generic white parts were very much leading the way, with black and brown being added in the early 80's, if not before. In light of that, it surprised me a good deal in the mid 1980's to see Electrolux reverting to colour-matched tools on their 600 series, as did Hoover on their Total System models. Neither carried this forward to the respective replacement cleaners (Contour and Turbopower2). I would assume that as practically all other cleaners on sale at that time had black or grey tools, there was seen to be no need for colours.



Post# 252725 , Reply# 17   10/12/2013 at 16:59 (3,842 days old) by thekirbylover (Warrington, cheshire )        
dc02s

thekirbylover's profile picture
here are my dyson dc02s

Post# 252726 , Reply# 18   10/12/2013 at 17:00 (3,842 days old) by thekirbylover (Warrington, cheshire )        

thekirbylover's profile picture
and the infamous dc05 clear a very big improvement on the dc02

Post# 252728 , Reply# 19   10/12/2013 at 17:04 (3,842 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        
"improvement"

It was, and yet it wasn't. The changes which made it better were good. The other changes were poor. The telescopic tubes on this model were easily broken in the middle and on the end where there is a plastic cuff.

The whole idea of that stupid clip on the tools did very much pass me by and if not fitted to increase built-in failure then I know not of what it was there for. I also thought the idea of the tools clipped to the hose was really poor for such an expensive cleaner.


Post# 252730 , Reply# 20   10/12/2013 at 17:12 (3,842 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

If you look on many review websites, and Argos as well, one of the biggest complaints people have is "Its too big and cumbersome", or "Its too heavy to lug up the stairs"

I read many reviews of the DC15, and it was clear to see that the biggest flaw was its weight and bulk. So many people complained about this.

You can also see this on Miele's first upright, the S7 - most of the complaints are about its size and weight. I can bet that when Meiele launch its replacement, they will make it smaller and lighter.

Dyson has to respond to criticism, or he wouldn't sell as many vacs as he does. He reduced the size of the DC15 a year or so later, to make the DC18, then made it smaller again to make the DC25, and went even smaller to make its then little brother the DC24, but these ran concurrently, with the DC24 the choice for older people or people with not much space. This was the same with the DC22 and DC26 - he wanted to satisfy a market for people that wanted a small canister who lived in small flats or homes with stairs where owners found a conventional canister to big and awkward to lug up the stairs. Many people complain about the Henry for this, saying that he is too bulky and heavy to get up stairs, or takes up too much room in a tiny flat.

Dyson did run the DC22 baby, and  DC26 city alongside the larger DC19 and DC32, to cater for those who needed a larger bin capacity. The DC39 however is nothing more than a gimmick. Also note on the DC39 how much room in the bin there is for the actual dirt itself, not a lot when you take out the room that the cyclone assembly takes up.

This is a criticism of many bagless canister models - the cyclone assy takes up so much room in the bin that the "MAX" line is getting further down towards the bottom.  

Vax addressed this on the Mach Air canisters, by increasing the space in the bin for the dirt. They altered the cyclone assy and also located the primary separator on the outside of the canister, although later models of Mach Air Mini machines had the primary separator located to inside of the bin again .

 

 

Vax Mach Air:


Post# 252732 , Reply# 21   10/12/2013 at 17:22 (3,842 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Benny is right about the clip on hose tool caddy - this was carried on to later canisters and its a dreadful design. A friend of mine has a DC08 Animal with that hose caddy and hers is broken. She said the tools always used to fall off it anyway.

The point where the ABS handle slides into the telescopic metal wand was always a weak point on early machines - how many of them do you see on EBay where the handle has been repaired with gaffer tape?

The DC02 also had problems with the tool compartment door flap not staying closed, as the exhaust air passed through this compartment.

The DC02 in comparison to the DC01 was a poor seller, which makes the limited editions so rare now, and those that are still left are obsolete so parts are no longer available.

 


Post# 252733 , Reply# 22   10/12/2013 at 17:27 (3,842 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        
tool caddy

I will say that at least with the DC08 it could be removed by the user. With the 05 you were stuck with it. I thought it to be a most inconvenient and cheap idea.

Post# 252736 , Reply# 23   10/12/2013 at 17:44 (3,842 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

The hose mounted caddy was abandoned on the DC19 T2, when the extension tube wand became its new location. The caddy clipped onto the tube, but I found this to be inconvenient as well, as it used to get knocked when vaccing in tight spaces, and end up sliding down the tube or turning itself round.

The best design was on the old bagged canisters where the tools stored under the lid over the bag housing.

The location for the tools on the DC02 was not a bad one, it was just that the lid had a habit of popping open in use by itself.

 

DC19 Animal, with wand mounted tools:



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