|
Thread Number: 20952
I shall be on BBC Radio Leeds tomorrow from 8am |
[Down to Last] |  |
| Post# 234539 5/30/2013 at 08:41 (3,977 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
Hey everyone,
A very nice chap from BBC Radio Leeds managed to track me down via the wonderful internet. They're doing a piece on the recent EU legislation limiting the power of vacuum cleaners to save energy. They've asked me to go in and for a bit of a discussion regarding this and ask about the collection. For those interested, I shall be on from 8am tomorrow morning. wish me luck! Chris | ||
| Post# 234541 , Reply# 1 5/30/2013 at 08:53 (3,977 days old) by dysondestijl (east midlands, UK) | ||
|
Good luck! | ||
| Post# 234545 , Reply# 2 5/30/2013 at 09:44 (3,977 days old) by ultraperformer (Derbyshire, UK, Europe) | ||
 | ||
| Post# 234555 , Reply# 4 5/30/2013 at 12:48 (3,977 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
|
Hi Roger,
I completely agree. Look back over clean air vacuums like the Panasonic 40 series, Electrolux Contour and Hoover Turbopower 2 that were all under 900w and all had more than enough suction power. My 1150w Sebo has more suction than my Mums old 1800w Electrolux. Higher watts doesn't mean greater suction and, if asked, I will point this out. I will also be sure to point out that a cleaner with more suction might not mean a cleaner carpet as there are plenty of other design factors to consider. | ||
| Post# 234556 , Reply# 5 5/30/2013 at 13:19 (3,977 days old) by parwaz786 ( ) | ||
|
and also the Dyson DC24 is 600W and has more power than a DC01 full sized which is 1200w, and also picks up just as good as 2100W vacs, but manufacturers saythat the lower wattage may affect performance of the vacuum cleaners. Anyways, All the best mate :) Tayyab | ||
| Post# 234557 , Reply# 6 5/30/2013 at 13:33 (3,977 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
|
That's a good point about the DC24, Tayyab. Just goes to show you, how much suction do you REALLY need to effectively clean a carpet? Chances are, most of the suction on such a powerful machine would be wasted anyway, because it really wouldn't take that much suction to effectively clean it in the first place. Dust mites are not sitting, seat belts at the ready for vacuum day.
| ||
| Post# 234562 , Reply# 7 5/30/2013 at 14:49 (3,977 days old) by Ultimatevacman ( Leeds, West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
 | ||
| Post# 234570 , Reply# 9 5/30/2013 at 16:55 (3,976 days old) by parwaz786 ( ) | ||
2008The Dyson DC24 vacuum proves that you don't need big motors for good pick up performance. This machine uses 650 watts of power-saving energy. Sustainability becomes a key criteria in the James Dyson Award for student design. 2009Dyson's latest digital motor sees its first application in the Dyson DC31 handheld cleaner. Because of it, DC31 is smaller and over 20 per cent lighter than DC16 CLICK HERE TO GO TO parwaz786's LINK | ||
| Post# 234571 , Reply# 10 5/30/2013 at 17:00 (3,976 days old) by parwaz786 ( ) | ||
|
By the way, when will the vacuum's have lower wattages? I wonder what carpets will be like in 10 years time! | ||
Post# 234576 , Reply# 11 5/30/2013 at 18:05 (3,976 days old) by bagintheback  (Flagstaff, Arizona) |
||
 | ||
| Post# 234578 , Reply# 12 5/30/2013 at 18:19 (3,976 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 234594 , Reply# 13 5/31/2013 at 02:03 (3,976 days old) by Ultimatevacman ( Leeds, West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 234598 , Reply# 14 5/31/2013 at 02:43 (3,976 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 234599 , Reply# 15 5/31/2013 at 03:01 (3,976 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
|
If anyone missed the show and would like to hear it, you can find the podcast here. I was on at roughly 7:50, after the discussion with Nicola from the University of Leeds regarding the breakthrough in cervical cancer research.
Make sure to choose the show from 31/05. It should be up for streaming later today or tomorrow. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Turbo500's LINK | ||
| Post# 234601 , Reply# 16 5/31/2013 at 04:46 (3,976 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
|
The show is available to listen here. I'm on at about 1 hour 24 mins in :)
CLICK HERE TO GO TO Turbo500's LINK | ||
| Post# 234606 , Reply# 17 5/31/2013 at 07:12 (3,976 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 234626 , Reply# 18 5/31/2013 at 10:00 (3,976 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland) | ||
 | ||
| Post# 234632 , Reply# 19 5/31/2013 at 11:02 (3,976 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2) | ||
Ooh, you're a star!
Also see a recent report that was put on today. CLICK HERE TO GO TO sebo_fan's LINK | ||
| Post# 234633 , Reply# 20 5/31/2013 at 11:10 (3,976 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 234665 , Reply# 21 5/31/2013 at 16:53 (3,975 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
|
| ||
|
Post# 234668 , Reply# 22 5/31/2013 at 18:17 (3,975 days old) by tazcatsdad (Buffalo, NY) |
||
 | ||
| Post# 234681 , Reply# 23 5/31/2013 at 23:38 (3,975 days old) by spiraclean (UK) | ||
The trend for crazy high wattages is something that drives me absolutely bananas. It's all about one-upmanship amongst the manufacturers, and it doesn't hurt of course that the public has been well and truly conditioned into thinking more power is always better. Give them a choice of two identical cleaners, one with a 1200 watt motor and the other with 2000 watts, and guess which one they'll pick.
High revving motors are the reason we now have so many cleaners that run hot and make a dreadful high pitched noise while running. It's also the reason why brushrolls now have either very soft bristles in sparse tufts, or a dual belt drive to help reduce its speed. Cleaning tools have vents moulded into them, allegedly to set up air currents that assist in dirt pickup. Really it's to bleed off excess suction, so you can move the upholstery tool over your sofa cushions with at least a moderate degree of ease. My daily driver Sebo D2 - which I absolutely adore - has a 2100 watt motor. At maximum speed it has way too much suction, which just makes every single job so much harder. Normally I set it anywhere between minimum and halfway as appropriate, and find this to be more than adequate for any job. Nice to have that flexibility, but to me, a 2100 watt motor that never gets run at full tilt does seem like a bit of a waste. Had the same cleaner been available with (for example) a 1200 watt motor, I'd have been right on it. I do realise, however, that such a thing would not sell to the general public when displayed next to something with enough power to create a black hole. | ||
|
Post# 234694 , Reply# 24 6/1/2013 at 04:26 (3,975 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill (Birthplace of the Railway),England, UK.) |
||
Radio Oovah | ||
| Post# 234697 , Reply# 25 6/1/2013 at 06:04 (3,975 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
|
| ||
|
Post# 234704 , Reply# 26 6/1/2013 at 08:08 (3,975 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill (Birthplace of the Railway),England, UK.) |
||
|
| ||
| Post# 234726 , Reply# 27 6/1/2013 at 10:33 (3,975 days old) by dysondestijl (east midlands, UK) | ||
|
I totally see why this is happening, I mean, most 1600+ watt motors usually belong to crappy, poorly designed vacuums (except the sebo) such as VAX's power models, like the power 4 is 2,200watts- it's really not nescessary! | ||
| Post# 234774 , Reply# 28 6/1/2013 at 14:14 (3,975 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2) | ||
|
Well lets not forget Miele - they offer 2200 watts!
Im going to reiterate what I've said all along as well as add another point:
When I had hair, and lots of it I much preferred having a 1600 watt hair dryer to dry my hair than a 900 watt one - same applies for vacuums - we can moan as much as we like - but it didn't help that back in the day, with fantastic upright vacs like the Hoover Junior that was probably the UK favourite, suction through the hose was weak compared to the 700 to 900 watts of the cylinder vacs. Why else did Hoover add the two step motor to the Senior when the hose was attached - more power, more watts used - the availability of more suction through the increase of watts. We're all moaning about motors NOW going into the 2000 and 3000 watt ratings and so forth but unless brands start to lower the energy and motor rating of other household appliances used daily compared to vacuum cleaners, there really is no point to pass a law to restrict the power rating on vacuums. Also we've been conditioned into thinking that higher is better across lifestyle products from the very beginning - the Americans, the British etc; countries that set forth the idea of "adding premium status," came from "deluxe" badged products such as a cars with higher engines or dressing up the body work with add on spoilers etc to improve air flow and running costs counteracting against the higher engine fitted in the first place. As for my SEBO D2 - I use it on occasion if I haven't vacuumed for weeks and like Spiraclean, i choose to use it in the lower bands of power as opposed to full. Ive been pressing SEBO UK to get their Eco 1600 watt version in as they have in other countries - their professional model without the added convenience of auto cord rewind has a 1200 watt motor - signs that things are quite possible to lower power rating. | ||
| Post# 234788 , Reply# 30 6/1/2013 at 16:48 (3,974 days old) by singingrainbow (Texas) | ||
|
I just got a chance to listen to those broadcasts and I think you did a wonderful job! Your insights were very interesting, and you gave this site some free publicity:) Scott | ||
| Post# 234795 , Reply# 32 6/1/2013 at 17:55 (3,974 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2) | ||
|
Re: A double edged sword
VR - if you look at mostly any rapid boil kettle you'll see 2800 watts TO 3000 watts. Until tests provide evidence that kettles allow a lower amount of wattage to boil the water before boiling, the product is STILL using the lower output of 2800 watt just to power it up. These ratings are still too high. We then sacrifice quick "boiling time" or how impatient you are versus patience with the far lower "supermarket" slower-to-boil or cut-budget brands that offer a far lower element energy rating of 1800 watts to 2200 watts per kettle.
One could easily argue that even 2200 watts for an electric kettle is still too high - and given that most kettles in the 1990s had between 700 to 1000 watts for the "traditional" design, even the metal round bodied ones in year 2000 under Russell Hobbs were uprated to 2200 watts to 2800watts, presumably to meet the demand "for high power' for buyers. | ||
| Post# 234796 , Reply# 33 6/1/2013 at 18:00 (3,974 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2) | ||
|
Re: Air Watts
Sadly I don't believe in air watts either - air watts only came about with Dyson's 100% suction all of the time - with a bag in a place, or even the cyclonic paper pleated types, we all know that the suction starts to weaken - thus air watts cannot provide a continuous, reliable figure that buyers can depend on. Not just dependent on 100% suction all of the time, it also depends on the design of the vacuum's air flow and sealed suction, which in some brands' offering is lacking.
But unless a system offers continuous "power" and "suction" all of the time without it being weakened, air watts is a marketing spin concept. | ||
| Post# 234812 , Reply# 35 6/1/2013 at 23:01 (3,974 days old) by spiraclean (UK) | ||
|
Perhaps there needs to be an energy labelling scheme for vacuum cleaners, to include performance ratings. Subject them all to the same standardised dust pick-up test, and show the result as a percentage. Grade the cleaner on a scale from A-to-whatever, according to how well it cleans versus the watts used on the maximum power setting.
Consumers would instantly be able to compare various models. Is it pulling lots of watts but doing a mediocre job? Or is it wringing as much efficiency out of a lower wattage motor as possible and still cleaning better than some of the competition? I'm not so sure that vacuums are the first thing we should be looking at in the home in order to save energy, but if this is the path we're heading down, it may as well be done in a way that is easily understood by the public so they can compare apples to apples. Energy label testing costs money, but we're already doing it for white goods and many other products we buy today. And although lab conditions do not accurately reflect usage in the home, at least if they are standardised, every cleaner would be tested on a level playing field. Somehow I doubt this is what we will end up with though. It's more likely there will simply be a motor wattage limit imposed, manufacturers will stamp ECO on all their cleaners and then say "Look how green we're being!", and the public will end up paying higher prices for something that has been greenwashed. | ||
| Post# 234821 , Reply# 36 6/2/2013 at 03:29 (3,974 days old) by dysondestijl (east midlands, UK) | ||
|
Now an example of a great, low wattage vacuum is a Kirby. It produces more than adequate suction, and it's carpet cleaning is excellent. On my heritage, the wattage is 515~660watts wich is perfectly enough. | ||
| Post# 234835 , Reply# 38 6/2/2013 at 05:58 (3,974 days old) by suctionselector (Leeds, England) | ||
Chris | ||
| Post# 234836 , Reply# 39 6/2/2013 at 06:29 (3,974 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2) | ||
|
I agree with you Spiraclean - but sadly I wish the ratings that are currently provided on washing machines were half as true as own experience.
Id be wondering who would actually test a vacuum cleaner to judge the best performance etc and how it would be judged not just by the water lift ratings, an aspect of info that usually isn't listed alongside all brands in the UK but seems to be quoted with brands in the U.S as well as other European countries. If the government/whoever spent less time having to wonder about high ratings for vacuums and actually looked at proper Green issues of environmental change rather than brushing real issues under the carpet (pardon the pun), we wouldn't be clutching at straws for pushing eco-friendly power from domestic appliances. Brands shouldn't raise the price accordingly for having a lower powered vacuum cleaner against the standard high power, either. That's just nuts! Sending the message that you have to pay more to be greener isn't right at all! Americans may well feel that they don't have this issue - but in actual fact they already did - cue the large limousine cars of the 1950s etc - beautifully long gas guzzling limo type cars (not the stretched ones Im referring to, here) like Cadillac etc - the U.S were forced to change down to smaller vehicles to save on fuel costs and costs etc. | ||
| Post# 234870 , Reply# 41 6/2/2013 at 11:45 (3,974 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2) | ||
|
Thank god banger cars and second hand vacuums are still on sale then - Autocar did an excellent piece last week on "Bangernomics," i.e banger cars that no one had fallen for the government incentive a few years ago to scrap old cars. Most turn out to be much more cost effective keeping on the road as well as being largely fuel efficient dependent on the engines etc you choose.
Roughly speaking then, the same could be said for vacuums - maintain and mend your old retro vacuums whether they are used as daily drivers or not. | ||
| Post# 234923 , Reply# 43 6/2/2013 at 18:33 (3,973 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 235027 , Reply# 44 6/3/2013 at 14:46 (3,973 days old) by spiraclean (UK) | ||
|
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle - in that order. That's what being "green" is all about, if it truly is your thing.
But that would probably mean going without, or having old stuff instead of something shiny and new. This would, of course, never do. Wouldn't it be better if we could still buy nice things, but with a picture of a tree on the box so we could more easily justify it to ourselves and others? That would also mean we've done "our bit", so could continue driving to Waitrose in the 4-litre Land Rover without feeling at all guilty. I joke, but the sad thing is, that's what being environmentally friendly means to some people. All for show, and used to beat others round the head with. | ||
| Post# 235259 , Reply# 50 6/5/2013 at 08:36 (3,971 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland) | ||
|
Very good points made there Benny.
I'm of the belief that replacing a working appliance simply because it is advancing in years is a sin. Yes it is maybe using a bit more power than a newer counterpart, but think of the expence of buying a newer model, then the fact the old one will end up being scrapped (and thus costing more money) and it seems much more sensible to stick with the current appliance and replace it if and when it breaks down. | ||
| Post# 235260 , Reply# 51 6/5/2013 at 08:37 (3,971 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 235268 , Reply# 53 6/5/2013 at 09:56 (3,971 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
|
Roll on the great Kirby comeback!
Sorry, but I hightly doubt that. I wouldn't say Kirby are any more or less popular than they have been. More people have always bought budget cleaners that Kirby's - certainly in the early 90's, there were far more Goblin Laser's around than Kirbys.
I don't know anybody who would be willing to spend £1000+ on ANY vacuum. Of course, once upon a time, you could've spent any amount of money on a vacuum and got a relatively decent performer. Sure, some were better than others, but looking back over catalogues at some of the cheaper machines, they all cleaned to an acceptable standard. It's only really in recent years that the cheaper end of the market has got so terrible. | ||
| Post# 235269 , Reply# 54 6/5/2013 at 09:58 (3,971 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 235285 , Reply# 57 6/5/2013 at 11:28 (3,971 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
|
RE: dirty fan
There isn't much market for them anymore. The introduction of clean air machines meant the user could own 1 machine that performed equally as well on the hose as it did the tools without having to own both a cylinder and upright machine. Dirty fan cleaners were great for carpets, but the cleaners with on-board tools weren't that great as suction only cleaners and machines like Kirby where the tools need to be added on are far to inconvenient when compared with clean air uprights with built in tools. Add that to the fact that more and more people have bare floors and low pile, hard wearing carpet, it kind of renders dirty fan a bit useless as they don't do so well without a thick, deep pile carpet to clean. | ||
| Post# 235344 , Reply# 58 6/5/2013 at 15:23 (3,971 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 235354 , Reply# 59 6/5/2013 at 17:21 (3,970 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2) | ||
|
If only people realised about Kirby...
People do realise that Kirby are good uprights - but they're far from quick, nimble and lets face it due to the metal construction - are hardly the vacuum of choice for wheeling out to the car or lifting. Whenever anyone asks me for a good upright similar to a Kirby, I always point out the Hoover Senior or the Sanitaire models that the UK had in recent years. You can't go wrong with either, though both lack an onboard hose and tools. Kirby's main problem IMHO is that they don't sell on the high street but stick exclusively to door to door sales, in the same way that Vorwerk do - and most owners I've read reviews by online have changed to the SEBO Felix because the model is very similar - and bags and filters are far more widely available.
Collectors are different since they usually have 3 or a lot more to pick. Kirby uprights in the UK are forever over priced anyway - as Chris pointed out quite rightly - very few buyers will pluck for a vacuum cleaner that costs £1000 let alone a brand that in recent years has received very bad press BECAUSE of the way it is sold door to door in the UK. Even at second hand prices, big machines like Kirby are an instant put off - they're simply too large and look too large to use. Cue American sized fridge freezers - most people I know who ordered ones had to put theirs into their rear conservatories because they either dont fit through the kitchen door or are too large to put into an average UK kitchen anyway. | ||
| Post# 235389 , Reply# 60 6/6/2013 at 01:40 (3,970 days old) by spiraclean (UK) | ||
|
Also, don't forget that direct air cleaners are typically of the soft bag type, and these do have a bit of an image problem. In many people's eyes they are considered to be old fashioned, like something your grandmother would have had. For example, during the 90s when I worked in sales, my colleagues used to refer to the Turbo Junior as a granny vacuum. There's a reason for that; nobody under 60 ever bought them. Even the regular hardbag Turbo was a tricky sale by that point, and appealed mainly to the buyer who was specifically looking for something more traditional.
Now us guys here may know the strengths of direct air machines, particularly when it comes to cleaning carpet. But the same cannot be said for the average buyer casually browsing cleaners in a shop, who would immediately think "old hat" and keep on looking for something that appears more modern. There is the hose issue too. Dirty fan cleaners usually have relatively poor tool suction. Those that don't (e.g. Kirby) require more user involvement for hose conversion. Neither situation holds much appeal for consumers, who for the past 20 odd years have been used to having high suction onboard tools as a standard feature. I think it's safe to say, most people would consider anything less to be a massive step backwards. | ||
| Post# 235422 , Reply# 65 6/6/2013 at 10:29 (3,970 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2) | ||
|
It does NOT take high power alone to produce STRONG suction!
No problem for the SEBO X4 to have 900 watts -its predecessor, the X1 Automatic had an 850 watt motor which can still be bought online as well as available worldwide under the Windsor Sensor brand. The SEBO X series isn't just known for its electro-sensor head.
SEBO, Miele and quite a few other brands that still use bagged capture of dust also offer SEALED suction - not just limited to the bin area but the whole product. Coupled with continuous air flow without leakage and the general design with the motor on board can ensure strong suction. As for HEPA filtration - well in the last 20 years, more people have been born with allergies stemmed from a number of variables - back in the 1980s when smog was at its highest and only being identifiable by the Americans and a few other European countries, there was not a lot of pressure on brands to produce high quality filters as they are now. Being able to contain the smell of dog hair back into a room from a bagged vacuum can only be done with multi layer filtration and if brands choose to wrongly name the filter used as HEPA, then so be it. It works better than the poor 2 or 3 layer foam filters otherwise. Mostly down to Dyson's marketing and advertising are buyers also led to believe the dust bag is bad as well as bags ripping - the synthetic dust bags fight back that old tale. Regardless of what Dyson and other bagless brands pap off - its all very well having the BAF seal of approval stamped on the back of a vacuum cleaner's filtration process - but we all know come the time to empty or de-clog that shroud, that the Approval seal is nothing short of marketing than reality. | ||
| Post# 235458 , Reply# 66 6/6/2013 at 15:27 (3,970 days old) by anthony (leeds uk) | ||
high wattage vacuum cleaners  | ||
| Post# 235461 , Reply# 68 6/6/2013 at 15:48 (3,969 days old) by anthony (leeds uk) | ||
|
high wattage vacuum cleaners | ||
|
Post# 235509 , Reply# 70 6/7/2013 at 00:34 (3,969 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC) |
||
|
Anyone have pictures of a 3Kw vacuum motor? This I would like to see.The largest in my collection would be 1800W-15A 120V.Tornado wet-dry vacuum motor. | ||
| Post# 235627 , Reply# 71 6/8/2013 at 04:40 (3,968 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2) | ||
|
Dont know of a 3KW vacuum though Im sure one exists somewhere else in Europe. As for the actual photo of one, I draw a blank. However, just found a 2500 watt Panasonic cylinder vacuum presentation video in the Middle East on You Tube.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO sebo_fan's LINK | ||
|
Post# 235628 , Reply# 72 6/8/2013 at 06:22 (3,968 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC) |
||
|
Interesting-Don't know of 2500W vacuums where I am-maybe for industrial use to run from 208-240V circuits.-Not for home use.Most vacuum cleaners for home use in the USA are less than 15A 120V-to be used with 15A 120V NEMA US outlets and plugs. | ||
| Post# 235629 , Reply# 73 6/8/2013 at 07:03 (3,968 days old) by sensotronic (Englandshire) | ||
|
3000 Watt Vacuum I've found a 3000 Watt vacuum and it's a bargain. Perhaps I should get one for my next YouTube video. CLICK HERE TO GO TO sensotronic's LINK | ||
| Post# 235633 , Reply# 74 6/8/2013 at 07:16 (3,968 days old) by Hi-LoSwitch98 () | ||
|
Didn't get many good reviews though sensotronic | ||
| Post# 235647 , Reply# 76 6/8/2013 at 10:07 (3,968 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2) | ||
|
If its the same one, then this Siemens is rated at 1200 watts with a claim of being as powerful as 2400 watts. Bosch have been doing this for years - though the BSGL5 series I had that had a big amount of power cable length was poorly designed - loosely based on the same company Siemens Z6. Quieter though than Miele which impressed me but the small cleaning tools did not.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO sebo_fan's LINK 
| ||
| Post# 235674 , Reply# 77 6/8/2013 at 11:55 (3,968 days old) by ultraperformer (Derbyshire, UK, Europe) | ||
|
I've found a 3000 Watt vacuum and it's a bargain. Pe | ||
| Forum Index: | 
| Other Forums: |
|
|
|
|
|
Comes to the Rescue!
