Thread Number: 18105
Europe to cut power of vacuum cleaners to save energy |
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Post# 197938   8/29/2012 at 08:17 (4,229 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Not sure if everyone has seen this. It came up in another discussion, but I thought it deserved it's own thread. See link.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO Turbo500's LINK |
Post# 197940 , Reply# 1   8/29/2012 at 08:28 (4,229 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Hallelujah!
Finally, some good news. I had to chuckle when I read the heading: "The cleanliness of Britain's homes is being threatened by European bureaucrats who want to reduce the power of vacuum cleaners in a bid to cut energy use." How the hell (pardon the blasphemy) is it threatened !? This is a damned good thing because it means manufacturers (mainly ones making bagless Vacuum Cleaners) will have to design them MUCH better to achieve acceptable suction power. In fact, I don't even know if it will be possible to have a bagless Vacuum Cleaner for 1960s wattages... This could turn out even better than expected and actually end the bagless market and return to low wattage bagged cleaners. THAT would be something worth celebrating... Or not, depending on the side you take on that everlasting debate. You know something, I haven't been happier all month! Thank you for posting this Chris, YOU'VE MADE MY DAY! :) |
Post# 197944 , Reply# 2   8/29/2012 at 08:35 (4,229 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Having read that article again, I now realise how inexperienced (there is no other word for it I'm afraid) the "experts" are.
They say it will reduce the effectiveness for picking up fine dirt... Umm, no! Not with a good brush roll. And as for cylinders, well, do what America does and fit Power Nozzles. All manufacturers need to do is look back on history and see how Hoover got the dust out of carpets back in 1908 - BEATING. Of course the method would have to be changed slightly to make it compatible on glued down carpets, but it could be done. I'm just glad my carpets aren't glued so I can use my good old agitators for dust removal, even if it does let some back into the air via the poor filtration, or even better use my Turbopower 2 and 1000 with the activators which work nigh on as good AND have good filtration. |
Post# 197953 , Reply# 3   8/29/2012 at 08:55 (4,229 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 197957 , Reply# 4   8/29/2012 at 09:05 (4,229 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 197967 , Reply# 5   8/29/2012 at 09:32 (4,229 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)   |   | |
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Its all political propaganda, the EU is full of it, they love to control. The vacuum company's will rebel and so will consumers.Consumers like power. Vacuum's, cars all the same, thats why BMW 3 series outsells the Ford mondeo in the UK, Power.
I tell you what though, if they do manage to make it law you will be able to make a nice living turbo charging vacuumcleaners. |
Post# 197968 , Reply# 6   8/29/2012 at 09:34 (4,229 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 197969 , Reply# 7   8/29/2012 at 09:35 (4,229 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)   |   | |
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Post# 197971 , Reply# 8   8/29/2012 at 09:37 (4,229 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 197975 , Reply# 9   8/29/2012 at 09:44 (4,229 days old) by dustin (Jackson, MI)   |   | |
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I don't know if you have them over there, but a few years ago, Eureka (Electrolux) was selling the "Enviro Vac", a lightweight bagless upright that they claimed had the same cleaning power as a normal upright. If I remember correctly, it only used 8.5 amps (99% of new vacs over here use 12 amps). I never had the oppertunity to use one though. Also, Bissell is using lower wattage motors in their low end uprights sold at walmart, I think 10 amps.
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Post# 197976 , Reply# 10   8/29/2012 at 09:46 (4,229 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)   |   | |
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Post# 197977 , Reply# 11   8/29/2012 at 09:48 (4,229 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 197979 , Reply# 12   8/29/2012 at 09:53 (4,229 days old) by dustin (Jackson, MI)   |   | |
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Post# 197980 , Reply# 13   8/29/2012 at 10:09 (4,229 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 197981 , Reply# 14   8/29/2012 at 10:25 (4,229 days old) by richardlee1985 (Swindon, Wiltshire)   |   | |
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Post# 197991 , Reply# 15   8/29/2012 at 11:05 (4,229 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 197999 , Reply# 16   8/29/2012 at 11:28 (4,229 days old) by Vacbear58 (Sutton In Ashfield & London)   |   | |
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Post# 198002 , Reply# 17   8/29/2012 at 11:37 (4,229 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 198003 , Reply# 18   8/29/2012 at 11:37 (4,229 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 198040 , Reply# 19   8/29/2012 at 15:40 (4,229 days old) by borusa (Edinburgh)   |   | |
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Post# 198069 , Reply# 21   8/29/2012 at 19:27 (4,228 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Um, well it isn't law yet and I sincerely hope it won't become law, because quite frankly the whole idea is preposterous. I quote from a previous thread here - if a modern day rapid boil kettle uses 3000 watts in one go or an electric hob that uses far greater watts, aren't these kinds of appliances used every day or both in tandem compared to a vacuum cleaner? What is stopping consumers from using a stove kettle on the hob to save money instead of using a separate jug kettle? What is stopping buyers from replacing their standard hob with a lower cost to run efficient induction hob?
I think you'll find that the reason exists because of convenience, faster boiling and a far safer approach compared to the metal, non-heat insulated, liable to boil over non-stopping stove kettle. As for the hobs, owners will keep what they have instead of shelling out for something more technologically advanced, uses less power but you still have to buy the pots and pans that can actually be used on the darn thing first!
Therefore one would assume that if consumers are using up more electricity than they should be, they should be coerced with brands appliances sporting the older, longer to boil 2.2 kilowatts/2200 watts for kettles and hobs. Still, some would argue that 2200 watts are still too high.
Frankly I think the proposal is only just a proposal - the newspaper report dates back to 2010 - so in two years, what manufacturer has brought out a vacuum with the suggested wattage?? Who has taken notice? Not many brands as far as I can see. And, yes there was an Electrolux Powerlite Eco upright (light green, I had one and it cost more than the 1700 watt version when it appeared) with 800 watts maximum. The trouble I found with that vacuum is that it ran out of suck with the synthetic dust bags that it was required to be fitted with and another reason it didn't sell was simply for the fact that it was priced more than the normal version and consumers weren't interested.
Electrolux have just brought out a new upright for 2012, the Air Excel Lite and it sports a 1300 watt motor. Still, for a bagless upright with the Vax Mach Air sporting 1200 watts, it is a step in the right direction - even if Sebo have been offering 1300 watts as its highest in their upright ranges - for more than 10 years with the X1.1 having 1150 watts. The older X1 A has 850 watts to 1000 watts.
About the only other brand I know who still sell upright vacuums with low watts is Oreck - or are there any others in the UK other than going down the Vintage route? My Black and Decker mains corded hand held with optional floor tool and extension pipes (thus allowing a mini upright vac by design and look) sports 900 watts and it's bagless. Maybe that's the way brands will eventually go.
In the meantime my daily driver is still my newly bought Gtech SW02 cordless sweeper - its soft bristles and eager power only requiring charged over night per 2 weeks ensures I have enough power to get around the home. It uses 25 watts to anyone interested! Thus when the vacuum gets taken out, there really isn't much to clean up as a result and only requires to be taken out two to three times a month.
Jamie - your posts are being monitored, Id be careful with what you say.
This post was last edited 08/29/2012 at 20:09 |
Post# 198106 , Reply# 22   8/30/2012 at 03:12 (4,228 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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"Jamie - your posts are being monitored, Id be careful with what you say." Is that a threat Ryan ?
Indeed Benny, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out what made vintage vacuums so good for so little watts. It was simple, for a cylinder you had a hose that went into a bag that had a big motor with big fans behind it. Big in every way except power, they only had around 500 watts give or take. Same with uprights only they used the dirty fan method which could still be used today in a hygienic way with HEPA bags such as certain Kirby models use. They say you have to move with the times, but why ? When things are fine there is no need to try and improve them. Ever heard of the phrase "if it ain't broke don't fix it ?" ? That applies here, vacuum manufacturers are trying to fix non-existent problems by increasing the wattages over and over and over. What they need to do is turn them down and make the technology better so as to not require a massive power plant for a motor. |
Post# 198113 , Reply# 23   8/30/2012 at 03:54 (4,228 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Its not a threat Jamie, it's a fact.
If you had a cylinder vacuum now like the vintage ones with sleigh rails, very little else other than a main floor head and a hose, would you be happy? I don't think you would - infact I think you'd pine for your Tango since that's all you appear to do.
Benny made a fair point earlier - consumers have been conditioned to buying high power - but they've also been conditioned to buy other features that outweigh the justification of keeping to the old formula they had such as:
A larger dust bag, more features on board such as an auto cord rewind system, tools on board, power settings, different cleaning tools, far more compact designs, easier to store, lighter to carry, telescopic height adjustable tubing, different filter options, longer cords and then different floor heads.
Higher power only forms part of that marketing strategy to pull the buyers in. I don't think you could easily live with vintage cylinder vacuums so easily without at least some, if not all of the modern features given above.
I am puzzled as to why you think brands are over complicating things by increasing wattages. All they are doing is increasing power - in the same way that virtually every other product or lifestyle product like car brands do - but unlike other appliances I've pointed out - there really isn't a problem with power usage and high power vacuums - not when kettles, ovens and hobs are used every day.
Until brands lower the output on kettles, hobs and stoves, I don't see the problem in producing high motors on vacuums. That fact seems to have passed you by - and a few others on here. |
Post# 198116 , Reply# 24   8/30/2012 at 04:13 (4,228 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Actually, I would be happy Ryan, as less is more with me.
I can appreciate luxury and lots of features, but there is a certain attraction to something so simple yet so effective. By the way, I don't pine for my Tango. You've mentioned your Sebo much more often than I have my Tango, so I'd say you are pining for it, but hey, I'm not getting pulled into such childish antics. Simple fact is Ryan, people managed to clean their homes just fine back in the 50s and 60s with the cylinders of that day and age. I'm not saying we should go back to being that basic, but I'm saying manufacturers should take a leaf out of the book of history and see that people were once motivated to buy something because of reliability, durability, simplicity and most of all, magnificent customer service in the way of in home servicing, in home pre-purchase testing etc... These days you go down to Argos and pick up a 2200W Vacuum Cleaner which will scream at you until your ears bleed and break down in 6 months. I never said that brands were complicating things by increasing motor wattage, what I said is that they are putting them up and up thinking that they are making things better. Maybe in your eyes they are, but in mine they certainly aren't. If only they could think "right, lets make something that has a quiet and efficient motor with such a design as to allow it to be just as effective as anything else on the market". But, I doubt they ever will, because there is no money in trying to convince people that wattage isn't everything, so they will "go with the flow". A flow which is ever deteriorating and giving consumers the absolute wrong idea about effectiveness and power of a Vacuum Cleaner. The fact is, the two do not influence one another. |
Post# 198127 , Reply# 25   8/30/2012 at 05:44 (4,228 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Mmm yes, all very well if we lived in a solid economy but we no longer do - you can't buy reliable or durable appliances these days unless you pay through the nose for it - and even then the durability isn't as good as it once was - case in point, Miele vacs are very fragile - I managed to damage one last week when I picked up dry, rotten milk in dry, solid form on a hard floor that has stank out my Active Air Clean filter as well as completely destroyed the hose and has left a horrible smell through the motor.
"Such childish antics." Oh please, listen to yourself - or rather check the posts where you continuously harp on on about your Tango, Hoover Ranger, Philips and everything else you seem to own. Oh and by the way, the Sebo X1 1000 watt motor has a 67 dbl noise level compared to your Hoover TP2 Auto sense 800 watt motor at 71dbl. How can that be, a higher powered motor is quieter than a lower powered motor - and the Sebo doesn't have extra sound insulation either!
You're quite happy to recognise that people from the '50s had basic vacuums and you don't want a return to that, but you want the same kind of customer service, durablity and reliability that the machines of the day - AND THEIR SUCCESSORS thereafter - makes me wonder if you are actually from this time period! Have you got a Tardis? Are you in the right century? Sadly, as consumers we have moved away from all of those concerns - why else do we have disposable pens, disposable shavers, plastic oil based carry bags compared to the woven tweed bags (and Hessian etc), food bags compared to tinfoil or wrapping your sandwiches in grease proof like paper? Because times have moved on - we've been living in a disposable society since the 1970's, possible helped and literally fuelled along by the oil crisis.
Effectiveness with any cleaner is in the name - it has to be effective to clean well - thus power is an absolute essential when it comes to how effective the vacuum cleaning can actually be - however it is in how the power is used that defines effective cleaning - and that aspect is lost on future buyers. You're not dealing with a car here, where a lower engine produces a higher fuel efficiency compared to a 2.0 or 3.0 engine. It's just a vacuum cleaner - its just a cleaning device.
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Post# 198129 , Reply# 26   8/30/2012 at 06:49 (4,228 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 198135 , Reply# 27   8/30/2012 at 07:23 (4,228 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 198144 , Reply# 29   8/30/2012 at 10:09 (4,228 days old) by richardlee1985 (Swindon, Wiltshire)   |   | |
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Post# 198146 , Reply# 30   8/30/2012 at 10:14 (4,228 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 198149 , Reply# 31   8/30/2012 at 10:42 (4,228 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 198150 , Reply# 32   8/30/2012 at 10:44 (4,228 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 198267 , Reply# 39   8/30/2012 at 18:06 (4,228 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 198681 , Reply# 40   9/2/2012 at 08:35 (4,225 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Um, I didn't intentionally go to the bother of testing how fragile a vacuum cleaner is by sucking up dried milk - I was cleaning under a fridge freezer, picking up glass fragments from a glass breakage using a suction only vacuum cleaner as MOST WOULD - I wasn't aware that there was anything like the milk under the fridge other than a dry floor to my eye. It was a shock that the Miele's so called "quality" and expensive to buy Active Air Clean filter couldn't hold back the odour.
If you bother to read my profile you'll see that I like lots of brands - and I've collected a fair few over the last 10 years or so as other members have done on here.
Ry-Ry - it would appear that is a new upright from Electrolux. They claim that is has no loss of suction, so it probably uses the same filter design as Hoover's Air Volution, Vax etc. I quite like the look with the entire clear bin leading right to the top before the cyclones but then it is similar with Hoover already, Bissell and others.
Whilst I think it would be prudent for brands to look at what has been offered in the past, I think it is high time Hoover brought out a proper Junior range and but more realistically and probably in time, Hoover will do a cheap way out and offer a new bagless Turbo Power upright with an even lower motor to extend their Greenray idea.
The 'Eco" tag is something that Miele actually thought about a long time ago well before they released their "Ecoline" motors - the budget S2 for example has an intentionally lower 1600 watt motor compared to the 2000 watt motors on their bigger cousins, not just from a marketing point of view.
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Post# 198706 , Reply# 41   9/2/2012 at 12:56 (4,225 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Talking of using a cylinder on hard flooring, I must say I have never really realised until today that the floor tool on my 2004 Panasonic MC-E8011 is actually very good on hard flooring.
It doesn't fly over it like some do nor does it stick to it. I used it because there was some flour (amongst lots of other dirt) on the kitchen flooring after my mother's baking last night. Didn't want to clog up a bag with it, so used a bagless that I don't really care about. |
Post# 198712 , Reply# 42   9/2/2012 at 13:22 (4,225 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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I find most suction only floor tools on hard flooring is good until you have to brush up pet hair, or your own hair if you are susceptible to having your hair cut in the kitchen or bathroom. That's when the hair sticks to the bristles.
As for sucking up flour, I've done it myself using a bagless vacuum. You can ignore the filter until the machine eventually runs out of puff and then have to deal with the flour then. Talk about wasted energy there - at least with a dust bag you can physically tap the paper to loosen the powder out and then reuse the bag again. |
Post# 198718 , Reply# 43   9/2/2012 at 13:42 (4,225 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 198720 , Reply# 44   9/2/2012 at 14:18 (4,225 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 198724 , Reply# 45   9/2/2012 at 14:31 (4,225 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 198725 , Reply# 46   9/2/2012 at 14:48 (4,225 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)   |   | |
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Post# 198728 , Reply# 47   9/2/2012 at 15:00 (4,225 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 198735 , Reply# 48   9/2/2012 at 15:20 (4,225 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 198736 , Reply# 49   9/2/2012 at 15:23 (4,225 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 198769 , Reply# 50   9/2/2012 at 17:32 (4,225 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 198771 , Reply# 51   9/2/2012 at 17:38 (4,225 days old) by anthony (leeds uk)   |   | |
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Post# 198782 , Reply# 52   9/2/2012 at 19:12 (4,224 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Do 3kw kettles come with such warnings? Nah. Feast your eyes on this particularly old report that shows usage of a 650 watt vacuum cleaner - compare that to the 4200 watt clothing dryer.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO sebo_fan's LINK |
Post# 198783 , Reply# 53   9/2/2012 at 19:14 (4,224 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Also, I just did a Google check - a 3000 watt vacuum cleaner does appear to be listed. Its a "Vortex Extreme 3000" bagless canister vacuum.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO sebo_fan's LINK |
Post# 198836 , Reply# 55   9/3/2012 at 02:36 (4,224 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 198846 , Reply# 56   9/3/2012 at 05:09 (4,224 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)   |   | |
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Post# 198848 , Reply# 57   9/3/2012 at 05:12 (4,224 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Not quite Benny - you don't normally use a vacuum cleaner every day - and if you do, would 5 minutes suffice compared to the 20 or 30 times a kettle is used daily? Same with a hob, it uses far more electricity from the moment it is heated up, switched on and used. We can discuss how long a vacuum cleaner can be used compared to a hob, a tumble dryer, a washing machine - but then I think we'd be here until doomsday. There's only a select few who choose to vacuum each day compared to those who are tea and coffee mad and need a brew every couple of hours, or new parents who require the washing machine and tumble dryer to be used daily. Lets not also forget the daily appliance that also uses up energy - the fridge/freezer.
Thus, there really isn't much of a justification to lower vacuum cleaner watts - unless the EU are trying to get around brands to lower everything else they produce.
Also JM - kettles with higher elements don't produce hotter water, they just do it faster due the higher power element - if it was the case that rapid boil kettles produced hotter temperatures, brands would have to cease selling the product as boiling water suitable for domestic use has to be at a fixed temperature.
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Post# 198853 , Reply# 61   9/3/2012 at 05:23 (4,224 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Of course, if brands actually stopped putting silly little "go faster" watt numerical decals on their actual products, the EU could just give the brands concerned a rest. But as Benny did point out earlier, we have always been conditioned to obtain a higher power, much faster, quicker kind of a lifestyle, promising that life would be easier, or better, massaged through the idea of going premium. I don't think it can be blamed entirely on vacuum cleaners, but more to the point, the automobile trade where the word "Deluxe" has always been offered as a higher purchase upgrade on optional mods and features, to the present day equivalents of dressing up car models with sporty trim but avoiding the expensive engine options.
Benny - Ive done my own tests compared to using a 2.2 kw 1.7 litre directly against a 3.0 kw 1.7 kettle - there really isn't much of a difference in time - with the 2.2kw, it takes about 2.4 minutes and 1.5 minutes with a 3.0kw. I don't mind either wattage, but I'm far more concerned if the kettle in question has a concealed, flat base element where the kettle's interior can be cleaned out compared to a supermarket cheapy, where most models have a bare element - useless if you live in a hard water/limescale area.
End of the day though, yes there is a fair justification for owning a vintage vacuum cleaner where lower watts are concerned, but I don't think most members see their vintage collections for that reason alone. I know I never considered my Hoover Junior U1104 to have eco-saving low wattage, and was more concerned about its lack of suck from the tool kit as opposed to its obviously better, instant contact to the floor from its beater bar roller brush. But therein offers the same point I made in my first paragraph to this post - Hoover offered the tool kit as an optional extra and for some Junior models, standard kit - again as consumers we were offered something that supposedly made the machine better - but in my experience, it really made no sense at all.
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Post# 198856 , Reply# 62   9/3/2012 at 05:41 (4,224 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 198942 , Reply# 63   9/3/2012 at 15:50 (4,224 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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That isn't what you are trying to say though, Jamie. You are actually inferring that the greater wattage a kettle has, the hotter the temperature of the water will get to. Both Benny and I point out that temperatures of hot water in kettles have a fixed temperature fit for consumption and/or general use. The higher wattage doesn't heat the water to a hotter temperature = it just aids the boiling process with more speed - same as a vacuum cleaner with a higher suction motor built to cope with sucking out dust more quickly.
I'd also like to point out one little issue that seems to be so easily forgotten. You moan 2100 watts is far too high for a current vacuum cleaner compared to lower watts, yet don't take into consideration that its a cylinder vacuum - but rewind back to 1990 when Hoover's flagship Turbomaster Total System U5096 upright sporting 575 watts compared to the TOL Sensotronic Audio System 300 that had 1200 watts on the machine and a further 300 watts for the electro brush alone - that tops 1500 watts overall with each use. Thus, that's more than double the output of the upright vacuum. Proof that back in the 1990s Hoover cylinder vacuums had too much high power going on, but in reality, it was far easier to use a cylinder vacuum (like it is now) with a longer hose than depending solely on an upright's shorter hose, or even with extended hoses attached, far more compact and safer going with a cylinder vacuum.
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Post# 198950 , Reply# 64   9/3/2012 at 16:21 (4,224 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)   |   | |
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Well I was suggesting that in the UK at normal level above sea water, water has only one boiling point. |
Post# 198956 , Reply# 65   9/3/2012 at 16:55 (4,224 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 198998 , Reply# 66   9/3/2012 at 21:12 (4,223 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Here we go again - do you remember the last time you got a sentence wrong? Can you read it slowly so that you actually understand what you said the first time? "The only WAY to get a hotter temperature and thus to boil water faster," are two very different points and scienfically can't be twinned together in one sentence to say what you mean.
ALL electric kettles have a FIXED Temperature by law!!!! It doesn't matter what element it has in place - higher elements with higher wattages just boil the water faster than the standard 2.2 k, which after the third post you finally concede.
That is all, there is no change to the temperature of the final product once the kettle reaches its boiling point, meaning that with a 3kw kettle, the final temperature of the just-boiled-water will be the same as the temperature reached in a low wattage kettle.
Which pretty much sums up the same kind of performance from a low wattage vacuum cleaner compared to a high wattage vacuum cleaner - both will suck up dust and put it into a bag or bin. Consumers have the choice to buy either low or high power appliances - both have their pros and cons - but the low watts these days have moved on from the 1990s and are higher to remain competitive. |
Post# 199049 , Reply# 67   9/4/2012 at 02:57 (4,223 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 199606 , Reply# 68   9/6/2012 at 13:04 (4,221 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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So yet again, even if kettles can have lower wattages, most buyers want a quick boil - evidently if a kettle is being used many times a day and far longer than a vacuum cleaner in usage, it really don't damage electricity usage that much if you do own a high power vacuum cleaner. Now that we've passed the kettle comparisons, you only need to consider the fridge/freezer that can use higher power that is an every day essential - yet brands are slow to make these appliances with lower power. Surely then it would stand to reason that if an appliance like a fridge/freezer has high wattage, it would burn up far more electricity than the use of a vacuum cleaner?
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Post# 199610 , Reply# 70   9/6/2012 at 13:10 (4,221 days old) by madabouthoovers ()   |   | |
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Then theres my mobile aircon unit - that guzzles power at the rate of 1KWH - the equivalent of 1 bar of an electric fire, and you have these on for hours in the hot weather (When we do actualluy get it lol) |
Post# 199616 , Reply# 71   9/6/2012 at 13:21 (4,221 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 199619 , Reply# 72   9/6/2012 at 13:27 (4,221 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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What about electric hobs then? Now, the induction styles which are pretty new and said to be energy efficient is all very well if you just have one hot plate. Yet, the Bosch PIL811T14E induction hob has 8 hot plates and built in, probably satisfying buyers on many levels and for the fact that it looks classy and looks like its up to the job in an expensively fitted kitchen. Total watts? You're looking at 7200 watts. ALL of that would be produced just to switch the darn thing on and use it, even if the newer induction style is a bit like halogen and offers an instant hotness for cooking on.
One could argue that a hob isn't used every day but like a vacuum cleaner, we can't stipulate how many times a hob versus a vacuum cleaner is going to be used. Electric fitted hobs are just another example of how much total connected power a large appliance can use, however.
Smaller appliances - the average combination microwave oven will have an 800 to 1000 watt element for the microwave alone compared to the 1300 watt quartz grill - total added makes 2000 to 2300 watts. Hardly energy efficient there despite combo microwaves sporting energy efficiency ratings.
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Post# 199620 , Reply# 73   9/6/2012 at 13:30 (4,221 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 199622 , Reply# 74   9/6/2012 at 13:33 (4,221 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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My point is Jamie, that there is no need to be worried about a vacuum cleaner having low or high wattage - not when there are so many other appliances in the home that are used on a daily, regular basis and have a high wattage anyway to power up just to use the said appliance. Statistically, vacuums aren't used every day even if you yourself feel the need to vacuum every day. If the EU are really worried about appliance wattage and the amount of times they are used, they should really be attacking the larger appliances or appliances that ARE used every day.
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Post# 199626 , Reply# 76   9/6/2012 at 13:47 (4,221 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Precisely Steve! For most people in the west coast of Scotland where it rains almost every day, an electric tumble dryer is an absolute must and as for that JML Dri Buddi, don't even go there - I had two of them and they're absolutely useless unless you constantly dry towels or tea towels and nothing else. Everything else just comes out far too stiff to be worn in an instant. Not all electric airer dryers are bad though - I bought one from a BN store last year under a brand called "Signature," and it had a very similar feel and look to the Dri Buddi without any names on the blue fabric net - yet its super quiet and actually works properly compared to the loud "honk" of the JML product. |
Post# 199639 , Reply# 78   9/6/2012 at 14:12 (4,221 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Well talking of tumble dryers I have myself a good low wattage one plus it is vintage too!
An early 80s Bendix 7414 which uses 1900W with the motor and heater. And anticipating your come back of "but it will take longer to dry", well, I've put t-shirts and trousers in it straight out of the washing machine and in 60 minutes they are done. |
Post# 199641 , Reply# 79   9/6/2012 at 14:20 (4,221 days old) by madabouthoovers ()   |   | |
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Yes Jamie, but how big is the drum and how much can it hold on 1 load? The diameter of the drum in my drier is 22 inches - how big is it on your Bendix? Could it accomodate a 14.5 tog double duvet or 2 pillows? |
Post# 199662 , Reply# 80   9/6/2012 at 16:27 (4,221 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 199669 , Reply# 82   9/6/2012 at 16:40 (4,221 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 199675 , Reply# 84   9/6/2012 at 16:53 (4,221 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 199685 , Reply# 86   9/6/2012 at 17:13 (4,221 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Post# 199715 , Reply# 92   9/6/2012 at 18:44 (4,220 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)   |   | |
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I need help to lift a Kirby these days,never mind push one. |
Post# 199724 , Reply# 93   9/6/2012 at 19:12 (4,220 days old) by Rolls_rapide (-)   |   | |
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Ah yes, pussy cats are a law unto themselves! Ha ha! |
Post# 199730 , Reply# 97   9/6/2012 at 19:34 (4,220 days old) by Rolls_rapide (-)   |   | |
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Oh no, don't - they're marvellous beasties! I love the way that they suit themselves with an aloof air. |
Post# 199765 , Reply# 100   9/7/2012 at 03:15 (4,220 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)   |   | |
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As a genuine request for some information, what advantage would the DDM be in a mains powered cleaner? |
Post# 199795 , Reply# 101   9/7/2012 at 10:28 (4,220 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Well if you want to call my comparisons to larger appliance a variable, so be it. I just don't agree that such an issue should be made about vacuum cleaners when the larger appliances that have a higher wattage and are used daily should be overlooked when their energy promotions don't really make sense.
My moan is the fact that you're still using up a heck of a lot of power just to activate a large appliance - regardless of the promise of energy ratings - and these energy ratings have provided a source of much debate with most buyers realising that the energy ratings don't really make much sense when the total watts to run an appliance is discovered - that is why, compared to vacuum cleaners and general floorcare appliances, the mere mention of total power watts can be harder to find on large appliances, no matter how much of an energy rating it actually has. One could therefore say that the energy rating system is therefore flawed - exactly playing to the marketing strings that air watts info on vacuum cleaners provide.
One example that cropped up with me is on my Bosch dishwasher. It comes with a supposedly "eco" tag, and granted it uses up to 14 litres of water compared to a general 16 litres on other rivals,but here's what I found when it came to actual performance:
"...If if you want the quickest wash setting you'll have to select the 33-minute "Quick Wash" function out of the three remaining programs and not all kinds of food ware get cleaned properly. For a start, plastics don't get a chance to dry despite the low energy "Eco-saving" 45 °C temperature. Dishes and cutlery come out touch dry but cookware such as Teflon non-stick pans are damp to the touch and I was surprised to find on some pans, grease had not been cleaned off properly. Glassware on the quick programme however, comes out glinting and clear, and apart from grease, other food stains vanish, leaving cutlery and dishes with a sparkling and clean finish. Aside from the 33-minute Quick Wash function, the latter programs are disappointing in their time duration and strangely less-thought out - for example:
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Post# 199877 , Reply# 104   9/7/2012 at 17:40 (4,220 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)   |   | |
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Hello Rolls. Thanks for explaining that. I do wonder if the advantages of the DDM are better suited to battery-powered cleaning, in effect? |
Post# 199885 , Reply# 107   9/7/2012 at 18:10 (4,220 days old) by Rolls_rapide (-)   |   | |
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See reply #99. |
Post# 199898 , Reply# 109   9/7/2012 at 19:28 (4,219 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 199933 , Reply# 112   9/8/2012 at 03:58 (4,219 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)   |   | |
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Sebo fan , I agree with you, we reverted back to our old indesit dishwasher , I hate the electroic settings on the new ones, as if its not programmed in you can't do it.
I like our old indeset because you can manually move the timer along and do your own fast wash. PS I fitted a thermostat control to the element, That way I choose the heat setting myself.
Personally I think they should go after washing machines dryers and dishwashers before vacuum cleaners, Think of it how long does your dryer run in a week ?
To end it off all I can say Is I am sure glad i don't stay in the UK or Europe, I can't handle the nanny state |
Post# 199935 , Reply# 114   9/8/2012 at 05:31 (4,219 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)   |   | |
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One of my best friends is a product engineer, He is British by birth and has spent along time between the UK and USA working for various lawn appliance company's He now resides here in SA .
We were taliking about producs and saftey and he came with this slightly exaggerated but effective analogy.
You stick your hands under the lawnmower while its running and to clear a blokage and chop off your fingers
USA you would go to court , sue the pants off the manufacturer for not having a Saflty lable on the lawnmower stating not to stick your hands under the lawn mower. Retire from your winnings.
UK Take them to court sue the pants off them becaus helth and saftly let the manufacturermake such a dangouras device , health and safty would imediatly make a law stating that lawn mowers were to dangourous for your avarage consumer and could only be bought and operated by professionally traind garden personal.
SA Go to court were the Judge would stand up get off his bench and smack you across the head for been such a idiot.
This is not meant to offend anyone, It was a funny analogy put to me by a friend who has spent most of his life designing lawn appliances |
Post# 199937 , Reply# 116   9/8/2012 at 05:46 (4,219 days old) by uksausage (eastbourne east sussex UK)   |   | |
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just another of my low power vacuum lol CLICK HERE TO GO TO uksausage's LINK |
Post# 199943 , Reply# 117   9/8/2012 at 07:33 (4,219 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Inadvertently then, clearly other members are using low watt run vacuum cleaners - but apart from the Dyson DC24 which is currently on sale that uses a 650 watt motor, it must be a trying time for those who want to buy a brand new low power vacuum cleaner. Back in the day we all know that high power was used as a promotional selling point - the Hoover TP3 is an example in point - whereas previous classic lines had up to 575 watts, or less than 700 in the Hoover UK upright range, suddenly the "new" rating of 1000 watts was the next best thing to have. My point is, it doesn't matter how much power a vacuum cleaner has in terms of its USP, but back in the day, even 1000 watts was too high compared to what Hoover, Electrolux and others were previously producing in the upright range. The promise then of greater power with an 1000 watt motor could have been considered a waste on power - but back then as buyers we weren't conditioned to think about eco-motors and running costs.
Is it perhaps then, a little too late for brands to be given a law that stipulates low wattage, not just for vacuums alone but for the entire white appliance industry? I haven't even touched on toasters yet !
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Post# 199996 , Reply# 120   9/8/2012 at 17:37 (4,219 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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I have no objection to any wattage - my argument is that back in the day 1000 watts could have been considered too high - but as consumers being eco-friendly was far from our minds at that point.
Benny - I will keep returning to the point that not everyone runs their vacuum daily and if they do it won't be for long periods - unless you live in a residential home, a hostel, a hotel, a B&B or any other commercial residence where traffic of people is a large number. Compared to the use of a fridge freezer, microwave, oven, kettle - even a hair dryer - all of which either use comparative or even higher wattage. That's my entire point - there's no need to worry about vacuum cleaner wattage when the existing appliances that are being used daily consume more power. As for being quicker, I'd say I get a lot more done in dust pick up from my high wattage Sebo K1 2100 watt vacuum compared to say, a mains corded hand held vacuum whose suction runs out fairly quickly, but this could well be seen as "another variable." |
Post# 200453 , Reply# 123   9/12/2012 at 17:11 (4,215 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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In the same way that why do microwaves have to have the halo of 800 to 1000 watts when back in the 1970s, 400 watts was more than sufficient to heat up a cup of coffee or do quicker popcorn? Why do cars now still have gas guzzling engines despite eco-warnings and other brands offering eco-engines that don't have enough power to outrace a chasing cop car, but have better mileage.
As with those appliances, vacuums were much better built "back in the day," and in a more mass-level compared to the premium-expensive vacuums customers are made to believe are better built and designed- and in some cases they are. Unfortunately, it also means a higher power unless some brands offer eco-low power friendly models? |
Post# 200469 , Reply# 127   9/12/2012 at 19:56 (4,214 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Not that I don't agree with you Calum, but I just had a thought - rating plates. They tell the truth between the base rating and the highest rating where watts are concerned. What does the S7 say to you? It doesn't matter what Miele state on the dial, the real power usage gets shown on the rating plate of minimum and maximum. What the vacuum has in total, is what the brand states -outwardly, but the rating plate indicates the base bands and so forth - so even if you have a "low" marked power dial on the S7, it could well use 1600 watts as its lowest power band - but then you may find what occurs to me regularly with my Miele.
I much prefer having an air outlet valve on handles when it comes to using hoses on some vacuums where the "lowest" settings proves to be too high. It is often the case for my Miele S6 Ecoline, where after half the bag is full, there is little suction on the first level that is strong enough to pull up shredded paper, thus requiring the next step up which is then too strong and requires the air valve to be opened for a better, gentler compromise. None of Sebo's cylinders have air outlet valves on the handle - or Bosch base line cylinder vacs for that matter - but they don't need them since it appears the continous suction dial allows for infinite adjustment compared to stepped increments.
Steve - I used to find that with the upholstery brush on the X series too - until I realised you're supposed to flatten the brush out on surfaces for dusting so that the inner plastic wall (castle cut/edged for a reason) allows the suction to pull the dust off from the bristles. Miele's round brushes clog up and they also have an improved inner wall made up of a round "wavy" pattern of plastic - but I find they clog up more due to their smaller suction hole diameter; A possible reason to why Sebo retained the triangular design for the new D cylinders/canisters as the dust channel is bigger.
I think most brands have ceased power controls on uprights because they feel it would snatch sales away from their cylinder vacuum ranges - particularly if they have low sales anyway and are trying to push cylinders more than uprights. A classic example of this is Panasonic - and I've just purchased a low power 1300 watt cylinder Panasonic cylinder vac. It has variable suction on it and has a far more modern design than Pan's current UK upright bagged vacuums that only seem to increase year after year by 100 watts with nothing else added but a new colour to promote it.
There are only a few brands out there who offer variable suction on uprights, because sales are healthy for both types of vacs they sell. Or, that's the way it appears to me. |
Post# 200501 , Reply# 130   9/13/2012 at 04:31 (4,214 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Steve - I use the smaller dusting brush on my X1 - but I will agree, dusting brushes in general aren't well designed - they either lack brushes or have too much.
However, even if Sebo do supply a different fitting - at least their tools can be used on every single model that Sebo produce - unlike Dyson.
On another note, I thought Dyson had variable suction on some of their past cylinder vacuums, or has it always been fixed? I consider most of Vax's range to be budget, but since you like the cheap of the cheap, it's no surprise to see Vax have fixed suction in their Essentials range. The Argos Value "fabric filter bagless" cylinder vac (and previously a Proaction label) does have variable suction, so it is possible to use it on the cheapest priced vacuum. |
Post# 200754 , Reply# 132   9/15/2012 at 04:23 (4,212 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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I think having a variably controlled brush roll can just complicate things, although it is a good idea in theory. If it did exist on previous upright vacuums, then kudos to the brand for fitting it.
TBH though, when I think about some past uprights I've owned, a variable suction control on the handle wouldn't really justify the power - the Oreck XL for example would struggle to supply enough puff without getting constantly clogged IF it had a low suction setting having to push enough air from its motor to blast the dust up the spine and into its massive dust bags. This reminds me of my old Electrolux Z517 where dust used to get clogged right at the top of the dust bag and stuck to the dust channel hole at the top of the bag. The orange Electrolux Z500 was better in this respect, but then I think it had a more powerful motor and proper variable suction as opposed to the daft air outlet slider/combined tool mount.
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Post# 200851 , Reply# 134   9/16/2012 at 08:31 (4,211 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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There's no "trouble in understanding." I have owned TP2 and TP3's that had the variably controlled brush roll via the preset buttons/rocker switches/whatever. My Dirt Devil Turbopower 2/3 with its 1100 watt motor had a variable suction control dial too. However, I find the whole idea ever so slightly pointless when a brush roll speeds up or slows down. If there's more suction available from a slide control or however you wish to use the idea, then that should be sufficient. Regulating the speed of the brush roll in my experience complicates things. There really isn't any need for it - another thing or issue that takes out more life out of the drive belt - and also having to put up with an increase of noise.
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Post# 200914 , Reply# 136   9/16/2012 at 19:15 (4,210 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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I think its far more simplistic to offer just variable suction and nothing more. I can recall my TP2 in the low mode had a tendency to clog on pet hair whenever the slow brush roll was used with the low suction. Far easier to just have a quicker brush roll speed and allow the low suction to deposit the dust into the bag. Hoover could have fitted a brush stop function whenever the vacuum was used for its hose in the upright position to save wear on the belt.
However, one must be prepared to know that the Panasonic uprights have never had height adjustment, only using the science of vacuum air between the floor head and the carpet to adjust gliding automatically. Therefore the only variable that exists is the difference between what the previous thread seems to claim that the pick up performance is better from the old model. What I don't know is if the brush rolls are different - having had Panasonic in the past, the current beater bristle bars are horribly thin bristles compared to the thicker brush roll that was fitted to my base white MC E41N. Thus, it could have been a contributing factor to offering better performance, not just guaranteed by a lower suction AND lower brush roll speed. |