Thread Number: 15634
Hoover Senior Flex 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 166254   1/18/2012 at 11:48 (4,475 days old) by juniorsenior ()        

Hi i need some advice about the right replacement flex to get for my 1969 Hoover Senior.
Can anyone tell me the correct details of what to buy?
Thanks
Mark

Post# 166260 , Reply# 1   1/18/2012 at 12:45 (4,475 days old) by hoovermanmick ()        
hoover senior

 hi if you go in to willcos just buy white 2core flex dont no our much it would cost probs about 7 or 8 pound its 1. 86 a meter

CLICK HERE TO GO TO hoovermanmick's LINK
Post# 166261 , Reply# 2   1/18/2012 at 13:27 (4,475 days old) by juniorsenior ()        

Great thanks.

Post# 166264 , Reply# 3   1/18/2012 at 13:45 (4,475 days old) by juniorsenior ()        

Has the flex not got to be the right ampage ie 3amp or 6amp?

Post# 166270 , Reply# 4   1/18/2012 at 14:48 (4,475 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Yes it has. But flex is now measured in mm. You will need a minimum of 0.75mm to be sure, and make sure it is 2-core. I cannot count the times I repaired a cleaner which had three core flex fitted, when the specific model dictated two. It will cost you more and will twist more easily when wrapped around the cord hooks. Most vacuum cleaners require 0.75mm, a lot use 1.00mm if the motor is more powerful. Some say the slight extra thickness of 1.00mm makes it more durable.

Post# 166273 , Reply# 5   1/18/2012 at 15:12 (4,475 days old) by juniorsenior ()        

Yeah thats exactly what happened to the Senior i need to replace the flex on, it had been fitted with a thick three core flex which was far to big for it so it had to go.


Post# 166276 , Reply# 6   1/18/2012 at 15:43 (4,475 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
What exactly is the difference between two core and three core, apart from the extra thickness ?

Post# 166277 , Reply# 7   1/18/2012 at 15:48 (4,475 days old) by juniorsenior ()        

Two cor only has the Live and Nuetral through it and 3 core has live nuetral and earth through it.

Post# 166278 , Reply# 8   1/18/2012 at 16:05 (4,475 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

The number of cores. Not being sarcastic, I'm stating a fact. A basic one, but a fact. Every cable and flex has one or more wires or 'cores' inside of it. Domestic flex for everyday appliances always has at least two and sometimes three, if an earth connection is needed. Some fixed appliances like gas boilers need 5 core if connecting to other apperatus.

Post# 166284 , Reply# 9   1/18/2012 at 17:31 (4,475 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
Oh I see.

I did think it may be Live and Neutral for a 2 core and Live, Neutral and Earth for a 3 core.

Post# 166288 , Reply# 10   1/18/2012 at 18:13 (4,475 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Well that is exactly what it is. Now, many vacuum cleaners past & present (though less so today) have required an earth wire. The reason for this is that there are metal parts on the cleaner which are considered potentially liable to come into contact with a live wire, in rare circumstances. How this is decided and who decides it I don't know as this is not my area of expertise. A lot of Wet & Dry cleaners had earth wires, as did a good many older dry vacuum cleaners.

Most cleaners are double insulated, which in it's basic form means that there is enough none-conductive material between live parts, even if a live wire became loose. A rating plate will usually indicate whetehr or not an appliance needs an earth, by saying the words earthed / double-insulated, or by displaying the respective logo. You will have to search Google for that.

However, a lot of DIY people replace flexes on appliances, and get it wrong. The two worst things which someone could do would be to fit a flex which was too thin for the job it was required to do, and fitting a 2-core flex to an earthed appliance. Other issues are using ordinary PVC flex on items like irons, not fitting cord clamps correctly, and so on. On vacuum cleaners, a classic trick is to use three-core flex to replace a two-core. Although there is essentially nothing wrong in that, the earth wire needs to be cut right back at both ends for it to be safe. It is just rather sloppy practice to use three-core, if nothing else. But it is sometimes very impractical too, as getting it through the cord sleeving and grips can be difficult if the flex is thicker. Also as I said earlier, the three cores make twisting much easier and on a vacuum cleaners the cores will eventually overlap and twist as a result of winding & unwinding the lead.

The worst possible use of three-core flex comes from a DIYer deciding to fit a three-core flex and utilise the earth wire by attaching it to a metal part of the appliance. There is no need for this if the cleaner is clearly marked as being double insulated and in some cases it can be argued that it makes the appliance more dangerous, should the earth wire ever get disconnected and made contact with the live. However, that could probably be said of any earth appliance.

Post# 166297 , Reply# 11   1/18/2012 at 19:16 (4,475 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

You just need to be lucky like me and find a 100M reel of white, 2-core 6Amp cable for a fiver at a car boot sale, proper stuff too, I've put some on my Electrolux C12 (even though it's desperate for a new set of bearings).... :P

Handy for all them vac rewiring (aswell as other things) needs... :D

Post# 166339 , Reply# 12   1/19/2012 at 03:45 (4,474 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

2CV...depends on if that £5 flex was counterfeit. May not be quite the bargain it looks...Not saying it is, but there is a lot of it about at the moment. Actually, I've been rather paranoid about buying flex and cable these last few years.

Post# 166344 , Reply# 13   1/19/2012 at 05:56 (4,474 days old) by vacbear58 (Sutton In Ashfield & London)        
More likey

 vacbear58's profile picture
It was knocked off (stolen) from a building site.

Not pointing fingers at 2CV, I don't doubt that you bought it in good faith, but anything that is left lying around in such situations will soon be lifted.

Al

Post# 166345 , Reply# 14   1/19/2012 at 06:26 (4,474 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
Informative as always Benny!

My 1982 Electrolux 502S doesn't have an earth wire, but my 1977 HOOVER Ranger does.

The reason for that I expect is that the Ranger is made using a lot of metal parts, where as the Lux is mostly plastic.

Post# 166349 , Reply# 15   1/19/2012 at 07:06 (4,474 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

No...the ranger was not earthed. If it has an earth wire then it is a replacement flex. You need to refer to the rating plate which will say double insulated, either in writing or by using the double insulated symbol, which can be found on a google image search. This was the point I was trying to get across earlier. In many cases it will be quite obvious whether an appliance needs an earth, just by looking at the wiring arrangment inside of the machine, but the rating plate with usually indicate one way or the other.

Post# 166350 , Reply# 16   1/19/2012 at 07:08 (4,474 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-...

See the rating plate? It has two squares, one inside another. That is the double insulated symbol and means the cleaner needs no earth wire.

Post# 166353 , Reply# 17   1/19/2012 at 07:11 (4,474 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Very possibly knocked off, who can tell. But like I said, there is also a massive ammount of counterfeit cable doing the rounds too. It's actually very worrying.

Post# 166357 , Reply# 18   1/19/2012 at 07:42 (4,474 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
Oh...

Does that mean my Ranger is dangerous then ?

Post# 166358 , Reply# 19   1/19/2012 at 07:46 (4,474 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
Correction - I just checked the picture I posted on the "HOOVER Ranger Broken Down" thread and it turns out my Ranger doesn't have an earth.

For some reason my memory thought it did!

Post# 166400 , Reply# 20   1/19/2012 at 16:32 (4,474 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

When I bought the cable, the woman selling it said she took it from her deceased husband's garage, and I've tested it myself (flammability, strength, current limitations, etc. not quite to British Standards levels, but it passed for me), so I'm doubtful it's counterfeit chinese stuff or lifted from some building site as it was new & wrapped up but the card side-walls of the reel had storage damage, so I'm confident it's genuine... :)

And yes, I too am paranoid about fake cable, and dodgy dealers, but it's kind of hard to not believe a genuine looking woman in her 50's selling off belongings from her husband who passed on (she had all kinds of stuff, the cable was pretty much an odd-one-out in amongst her tables of stuff)... :)

Post# 166412 , Reply# 21   1/19/2012 at 18:38 (4,474 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Jmurray...if your ranger had been given a 3-core flex, it wouldn't make it dangerous -as such. Fact is, anything which has exposed metalwork that has been earthed runs the risk of becoming live if the earth wire is accidently connected to the live terminal in the plug, or more likely if the wires have been connected wrong inside the appliance. The chances of any of that happening are slim, but I have known it happen. As have I known 13amp wall fittings being wired up wrong, with the live wire being placed in the earth terminal on either a wall socket or switched / fused plate controlling it. The potential is there.

Now, that is all down to human error, and the likelihood of that sort of thing happening has to be weighed up against the chances of the appliance becoming faulty, and as a result live connections coming into contact with exposed metal work. In the case of an earthed appliance, it will have been considered more likely that the outer casing could become live through a fault, than ever it might through human error. You could say in an ideal world that no appliance would need an earth wire if it could be made in a way that metal work could never become live. That is the basis of a double insulated [none-earthed] appliance; they are designed in such a way that the exposed metal parts should never come into contact with a roaming live connection, if all the original factory-fitted flex guides, hooks, and sleeves etc. are in place. Next time you take your ranger to bits, have a look at it slowly and note the way all the wires are a certain length, and have plastic sleeves on the terminals, and are anchored down to prevent movement, should a wire come loose.

For some reason, a lot of DIYers use 3-core flex to replace 2-core on appliances. Mostly they will cut the earth wire out at the appliance end, but still connect it at the plug end, which I suppose is the best of a bad job, as at least if the earth wire was to touch anything live, it would be earthed at the other end. However, I have seen many an occasion where someone attached the earth wire to the body of the cleaner. I guess the culprit thought they knew better than the manufacturer. Given that the cleaner will have been insulated thoroughly (as I explained earlier), this is not neccesary and as before, in very rare cases could introduce a danger where none would ever exist if it was left alone.

Appliances with water will often have an earth wire as a leak of water can carry electricity if it is in contact with a live part, but then you know this. Although I can never get my head around it, Hoover wet & dry cleaners from the late 80's onwards never had earth connections, nor did later Vax cleaners. Also in the mid 1980's Tefal did a table-top washing machine and matching spinner, neither of which were earthed.

You will have to go a long way to find a modern vacuum cleaner which is earthed. In recent years I have seen a Vax and Electrolux commercial uprights with earth wires, and Kirby always used to be earthed, but it has been a number of years since I last fixed any vacuum cleaner, let alone a Kirby.

Now to contradict myself, having suggested throughout that the manufacturers know best, they may do about earthing, but I often disagree with their choice of flex and plugs attached to many new appliances. I have recently seen a cheap fan heater fitted with 0.75mm flex. The appliance runs at 2KW, but such is the shortage of copper, and the cost so high, all appliances now have leads much thinner than I would think safe. I first noticed it with kettles, but there is the usage time to be taken into account there, where a kettle will normally only be used for a minute or two. This means that the flex is providing power for only a short time. In the case of a fan heater, it will be running at full power for as long as the thermostat allows. I do not like it one bit. 13amp plugs are now appalling. The moulded plugs have always ranged from OK to perfect, but in the last 15 years or thereabouts, the spectrum for moulded plugs has increased dramatically. Some are terrible. As are a lot of modern extention leads, but that's another debate.

Post# 166415 , Reply# 22   1/19/2012 at 18:51 (4,474 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

I just remembered something else I once saw, and that was a Hoover Turbopower junior which had been given 3-core flex. Someone had connected the earth wire to the handle. I forget why the cleaner had been bought in to me, but it was a routine issue like a belt or whatever else, rather than the fact that when plugged in it caused the RCD on the fuseboard to trip. Well it did in my shop anyway. The reason for this was because this model of cleaner was designed with a set of resisters connected to the netrual wire of the cleaner. This was then secured to the metal handle, in the trunnion area. I am not at all sure how it all worked, but it was done to take static electricity away from the handle and must have had just a tiny amount of current going through the handle. Static had been a problem for the Turbopower Junior on the first models and this system had been implimented to overcome the static.

Connecting the handle to the mains earthing system meant that the current from the Hoover-designed wiring was being taken down the mains earthing. Tiny as it may have been, it was enough to cause the RCD on my fusebox to trip. While I cannot recall the exact answer from the customer, I did ask if her home had a modern RCD, and she said she thought not, which would explain why it probably worked in her home.

Post# 166765 , Reply# 23   1/23/2012 at 07:00 (4,470 days old) by 74simon ()        

A lot of good advice there, Vintagerepairer!

One thing that's worth adding is that you might sometimes come across a class 0 or 01 appliance, particularly with anything built before the late 1950s. These are not earthed, but not double insulated either - mainly found with appliances designed to be used in dry areas. I usually change the flex to an earthed one on these appliances, as most are class 01, which means they can be adapted to be earthed. Having said that, if the flex is in good order and the appliance is being powered via an RCD (plug in on or at the fuse box), risk of electric shock should a fault occur is minimal.

Simon

Post# 166819 , Reply# 24   1/23/2012 at 14:44 (4,470 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Hello Simon and thank you. You comments about pre 1960's appliances which were not earth but not D I either, can you explain a bit more? What sort of examples are there and how do you tell? I'm really interested in this as some of the older Hoover cleaners presented a debate as to which ones should and shouldn't be earthed.

Post# 166829 , Reply# 25   1/23/2012 at 15:33 (4,470 days old) by 74simon ()        
No problem!

 In the UK, class 0 and 01 appliances were legal to sell new until 1975, although I think they were few and far between by then. The Hoover 612 and 638 are good examples, fifties models that were available as class 01 or 1 - presumably the 01 was intended for homes without earthed sockets. They did have a handle insulator however, the rubber cover of the part of the handle that slots into the handle bail.

The easy was to see if an appliance is 0 or 01 is simple - if the appliance has no mention of double insulation on the ratings plate and a two core flex it's either a bad repair or a 0/01.

I've earthed my 1930s Hoovers, especially as there are single insulated fabric covered wires in close proximity to metalwork - I fit the earth round one of the screws that hold the switch plate in place, and make sure there's continuity between the handle and the handle bail. On the other hand, my 612 still has its 2 core cable - partially as it's hard to find a close match, and also because the 612 seems virtually D/I, except the rear carbon holder, which is within about 1cm off the handle bail with no insulation barrier other that air - I've put electrical tape over it, to reassure myself!

I understand that earthing didn't come about until the late 1920s, not sure about double insulation but I'd like to find out! Hope that helps.

Simon

CLICK HERE TO GO TO 74simon's LINK
Post# 166834 , Reply# 26   1/23/2012 at 15:44 (4,470 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
That was very interesting Simon!

I'm glad all my cleaners are from the late 70's and after then, as I'm a bit "scared" when it comes to electricals (ironic, I know!) and I'm not sure if I'd trust myself to convert it to an earthed cable!


Post# 166856 , Reply# 27   1/23/2012 at 17:04 (4,470 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Hello again Simon. That makes for interesting reading, thank you. I think I follow. Just one point, well two actually, I take on board the bit about the rubber end on the handle, where it attached to the bail, would fitting the bolt not mean continuity was still very much intact, seeing how the metal bolt secured the metal of the handle in the bail? I admit that I always thought the rubber was there to ensure a firm grip on the handle in the bail, but what you've said sounds logical too.

Now when you talk about 0 and 01, and I have learnt so much tonight, if you were to have say a Hoover 612 which was 0 and one which was 01, you say the 01 would have been fitted with no earth, but was the design of cleaner such that it didn't need an earth? Because if they were both the same design, to me it would have been the same as owning the earther version and not attaching the earth wire. I never liked the way that the motor windings on the 612 were so exposed, although my mother had 262 cleaner at one point and I never cared for the exposed light bulb on that either. She had that many years before I ever got into the repair trade and it was not new either, so I spent many a year thinking it was missing a lens.


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