Thread Number: 14511
Sanitaire clamping effect... or not
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Post# 153539   9/28/2011 at 15:56 (4,565 days old) by Sanifan ()        

Hello!

I'm fairly new on this forum, but I've learned a lot perusing the site.

One thing that I learned was that Sanitaire direct air vacuums are regarded as good deep cleaners. They have good suction and a brushroll that vibrates the carpet to loosen imbedded grit (VGII). I'm a big fan of Sanitaire, owning the s670 metal-covered blue direct air upright and a few others.

Just yesterday I picked up another Sanitaire. This time it's a commercial grade red line sc688, with the grey plastic top.

Both have the ST style bag with Arm and Hammer Allergy Filtration printed on the front. The blue one has an outer bag with a stiffer, finer weave fabric, however. The red one has a looser, coarser weave for the outer bag fabric.

My question concerns that effect where the nozzle of the vacuum sucks and clamps down onto the carpet and actually pulls it up when the vacuum is tilted back. I've noticed that this happens with my redline SC688, but not with the blueline S670. Why?

My initial thought was that the blue one was broken somehow. I took it out and gave it a run right after using the red one for the first time. Yep, the blue vacuum just would not clamp down and suck onto the carpet the way the red one did. I went through all the height settings, and even at the lowest setting "1", there was no clamp action. The red clamped onto the carpet starting at "2." (Both vacuums have good brush contact at "2" btw. And I have low pile commercial grade carpet in my building.)

Anyone know why this is happening? Is the blue one really broken or not working correctly in some way?

I have noticed that the brushroll on the blue does vibrate the stuff on top of the carpet very well. It actually causes the bits to jump up and down on the carpet, and the power of the suction actually pulls some of the bits into the vacuum nozzle from 3/4" away.

So is there some error in the way the blue is working, and am I getting deep cleaning when the nozzle doesn't clamp right onto the carpet and stick to it?

I'm a bit flustered because I thought these vacuums were pretty much identical save for the plastic vs. metal top, and the long commercial 3 prong cord vs. the polarized 2 prong. But now I don't know.

If anyone knows anything about this, I sure would like to know!

Thanks,
Sanifan

P.S. - I wonder if this has anything to do with the weave of the bag. Perhaps the looser weave on the red outer bag offers increased airflow and more suction? Also, the red is using genuine Sanitaire Arm & Hammer ST bags that feel like woven fabric. The blue is using Envirocare bags that feel more like paper. Could increased airflow in the red vacuum be the answer to this?



Post# 153540 , Reply# 1   9/28/2011 at 15:57 (4,565 days old) by Sanifan ()        
And the blue one...

This is the s670 I have.

Post# 153549 , Reply# 2   9/28/2011 at 17:20 (4,565 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

The blue one sounds like it's working fine, when in good order, they won't "clamp" down, just lift the carpet or rug up and hold it to the nozzle just enough to clean it properly... :)

One thing you didn't mention though, is the red one is new or used? If it's used, it could probably do with a new belt and set of brush strips... :\


Post# 153580 , Reply# 3   9/28/2011 at 21:31 (4,565 days old) by Sanifan ()        
Used, but very lightly...

I did get the red one used, but it's hardly been used. The lady I bought it from said she had it for about a year, and that she vacuumed about twice a month. If that's correct, that's about 24 times in a medium sized apartment with medium pile carpet.

Apart from some very minor scuffs, the vacuum does look to be in very, very good shape. Brushes look like there's hardly any wear. Lol, she also had a 5 pack of TOL Eureka/Sanitaire Arm & Hammer odor reducing bags, the ones that look like cloth, that she threw in with the vacuum. I could see that there were 3 new bags left, and the one in the vacuum was 1/4 full. So it looks like she may have run a total of 1 and 1/4 bags through the vacuum since she had it.

Unfortunately, she did have dogs, so there is a bit of a dog smell. I expect that to go away after a time. Luckily, that knocked $10 off the price, so I got it at a very reasonable cost.

Funny thing is she sold it because she says her old Bissell bagless picked up more surface stuff than the Sanitaire, and thus had more suction. She basically said the Bissell picked up more clumpy stuff on the surface, and that's why she wanted to unload the Sanitaire. I think part of her thinking was due to the fact that some of the clumped up dog hair on the surface got pushed around instead of getting sucked up. That due to the Sanitaire was kissing the carpet so tightly. So the Bissell did a better job of getting those clumps off the carpet.

I will change out the belt the next time I use it, of course. But won't that only increase the sucking and pulling power of the vacuum, making it stick even more firmly to the carpet?

I actually prefer the tight suction that the red SC688 is giving. Somehow I feel that it is sealing tighter and sucking harder right under the nozzle, giving a good deep clean. My blue Sanitaire seems to be vibrating the dirt up very well and sucking it in with a powerful vacuum, but the fact that it doesn't seal makes me think the sucking power is not as great. Seems to me that the red is pulling out deep, imbedded dirt better, but I don't know enough about these thing to know whether that's the case or not.

Incidentally, the blue is a heck of a lot louder than the red. It's like the roar of a Mac truck going down the road. I read somewhere that Sanitaire may have changed motors somewhere down the line but, boy, is that blue S670 hella loud!









Post# 153589 , Reply# 4   9/28/2011 at 21:46 (4,565 days old) by kirbyloverdan (Egg Harbor Twp . NJ aka HOOVERLOVERDAN ❤️)        
Actually a vacuum cleaner needs

kirbyloverdan's profile picture
airflow in order to clean and deep clean . When it sticks to the carpet it can not clean properly. Many people think if they adjust the height to the lowest setting it will clean better that is false. Raise the height up a notch or two and always keep the belt changed they strech and don`t help with cleaning .

Post# 153602 , Reply# 5   9/28/2011 at 22:21 (4,565 days old) by broomvac (N/A)        
VGII endcap settings

broomvac's profile picture
I believe on certain VGII brush rolls there are 2 different brush depth settings for the brush roll end caps, very similar to the way you can change the brush depth by rotating the end caps of a brush roll from a Kirby G series machine. If you pull the brush roll out you may notice this. Simply turn the caps 180 degrees and reinsall the brush, and see if that makes a difference.

I noticed these minute differences in the endcaps of the rollers when I was completely rebuilding my S661. (pictured below)


Post# 153604 , Reply# 6   9/28/2011 at 22:26 (4,565 days old) by broomvac (N/A)        
Also

broomvac's profile picture
This is something I am sure you have already considered, but are the disposable bags in the machines BOTH new? If one is fuller than the other or more clogged, it will decrease airflow, reducing the "clamping effect"

Check the metal bottom plates, as not all are created equal. Some have vents and some do not. Also make sure it is properly installed, and check the seal around it as well.


Post# 153618 , Reply# 7   9/28/2011 at 23:29 (4,565 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

Speaking of belts, if the motor is a Pancake model (Blender models look like a tin can with a fan in the top), use Hoover Convertible/Senior belts, they last longer than the Eureka RD belts which seem to be slacker than they should be... :)

DON'T use them on Blender motor models though as they WILL ruin bearings, which wouldn't be good.... :S

Either way, Eureka and Sanitaire uprights are pretty damned good vacs, I never used to be a believer in them until I got my ZC-880 (European model sold as a Euro-Electrolux before they started Electroluxing the name in the states), brilliant vacuums, still love my Kirbys, but my Sanitaires get more use... :)


Post# 153667 , Reply# 8   9/29/2011 at 10:54 (4,564 days old) by Sanifan ()        
Thanks for the advice...

Good advice, guys. Thanks!

So is it generally agreed that it is NOT good to have the nozzle suck onto the carpet? Because of reduced airflow? If that's the case, I'll play with the brushroll to see if I can get some brush contact at setting "3." As it is, I get brush contact on "1" and "2", but both of those settings also suck onto the carpet.

I would have thought that the localized suction from a tight seal would deep clean better. But I can see your argument about how reduced airflow would hinder that. Being fairly new to the nuances of vacuums, I'm wondering if this is just common knowledge. Or are there two schools of thought on it? Seems like something a Myth Busters type experiment would be useful for, to see which one works better - maybe someone's done something like that? Or maybe it's just commonly accepted knowledge.

The point about the bags being full is a good one. On the red Sanitaire, I noticed the clamping effect with the quarter full bag that came with the vac, and then with a brand new empty one. On the blue Sanitaire, I noticed there was no clamping effect starting with a new bag all the way to a full one. Both bottom plates are in great shape. I did check the seals, both look to be fine. Both bottom plates seem to be of the same design - they both have side vents on either ends of the nozzle opening. These vents are designed into the stamped metal, and are about 1/2" wide, and 1/4" high. There's one on either end of the brushroll. Funny, just the existence of these vents would seem to suggest there should be no clamping action. If there are vents, would that not indicate that the plate is designed to NOT seal onto the carpet?

How to tell if the motor is a pancake or a blender? Can you tell by looking through the vents, or do I have to take the cover off? I took a peek through the side vents of the blue s670, and the motor looks like a big, strong, electric motor that's fairly tall, but it isn't housed inside a can. Instead, it's got something like a cylindrical black cage around it with straight vertical bars, spaced about a 1/2" apart from each other, going all the way around. The red sc688 has top vents on the cover. Took a quick peek through there but it's kinda hard to see what's going on. Good advice about the belts. I've been gathering a bunch of Eureka belts, but I'll be sure to grab some Hoovers if I discover I have a pancake motor.

Finally, why is the blue one so loud? There's the mid/highish pitched whine of the turbine, and then there's a deep, really loud growl. Again, reminds me of a Mac truck gunning its engine. On the blue, you can really hear the beaters working the carpet and the noise gets even louder when that happens. On the red, the noise is much less reduced. That growl doesn't seem to be there. Between the two, the red is much easier to bear. I'm actually loathe to use the blue in the hallways for fear of upsetting the neighbors. It's loud enough that earplugs are definitely needed for sustained vacuuming. I don't think there's anything damaged in the vacuum that's causing the noise. I just seems to be a characteristic of this particular model or sample. Any ideas?

Thanks!







Post# 153670 , Reply# 9   9/29/2011 at 11:59 (4,564 days old) by Louvac (A)        
The belt pulley made need to be replaced!

Check the belt pulley. For some reason, perhaps the very metal from which it is made, has a tendency to wear down rather quickly. When you check it, the center may be very thin as compared to your good model. When this happens, no matter how new the belt is, it will slip because there is less tension on it. Also, Eureka/Sanitaire makes a heavy duty "commercial" belt for these machines. It's really not all that different except the fact that it is designed to provide a little more life. I don't know the part order number but I do know as a fact there is a such beast!

Hope this helps. Please let us know!


Post# 153671 , Reply# 10   9/29/2011 at 12:16 (4,564 days old) by twocvbloke ()        
"maybe someone's done something like that?"

Yep, someone did, but a lot of rather miserable people didn't appreciate their hard work and thus their tests are now consigned to the history of the internet...

(I'm going to get told off by said person for saying that now!!!)

Anyway, your S670 has the Pancake motor, it will have more of a whine to it, that's just a trait of the Pancake motor, those motors in a home environment are bulletproof, they'll outlast the rest of the vac, and the blender motors, while not as powerful, are pretty decent motors in a home environment too, they just don't sound as nice... :)

Picture of a Pancake motor, if it ain't this, it's most likely a Blender motor:



Post# 153672 , Reply# 11   9/29/2011 at 12:30 (4,564 days old) by normvac (COLUMBUS, OHIO)        
Welcome to Vacuumland !

Your Blue Sanitaire should be everything you every wanted in a great upright vacuum. Especially if it is working properly.
The noise Factor, could be that you have a broken or chipped Impellar fan blade.
As that throws the motor out of balance and heightens the sound factor. As it is
causing stress on the bearings, top and bottom. So unscrew the two screws at the bottom of the zipper bag. So that when you remove it from the machine, you will be able to look inside. Then take the bottom plate off, as well as the belt. Look inside, from where the zipper bag attaches. Using you fingers to turn the impellar fan, while your looking to see if there is a chipped or broken blade.
If so, stop using the machine. Get it repaired or do it your self if your so inclined. I'm willing to bet, that is why your machine is so loud. Especially if you are cleaning carpet in Appartment or Building hallways. Where small stones and sharp or hard objects are picked up and pass on thru. As for the clamping theroy to the carpet. NOT good. Common sense would say "Get those brushes closer to the carpet, so they will sweep everything up" Wrong, Brushing is only 1/3 or 1/2 of the real cleaning process on carpet. It's all suction on bare floor/hard surface. Carpet also needs air flow to get the deep down dirt, then to carry the dirt away. Into the vacuum Bag.
Think about this, what happens on the end of the hose of a cannister vacuum. When you put the flat palm of your had over the end. The cannist motor gets loud. Plus there is no Air Flow. Now, start to pull your hand away. You hear the sound of rushing air and you feel it around you hand. Now make your hand wrap around the hose end. Like an attachment or extension wand. You feel all of the air that the motor is pulling toward the bag. Past the motor and returning into the room. That is Air Flow, which is an absolute need for clean carpet, floors anything. Plus it is necessary for the complete performance of the Vacuum cleaner.
Enough, one last thing. Do NOT use Hoover Convertable Belts on any of your Eureka Sanitaire uprights. They are way too tight and will, pull too hard on the bearings.


Post# 153673 , Reply# 12   9/29/2011 at 12:32 (4,564 days old) by normvac (COLUMBUS, OHIO)        
Welcome to Vacuumland !

Your Blue Sanitaire should be everything you every wanted in a great upright vacuum. Especially if it is working properly.
The noise Factor, could be that you have a broken or chipped Impellar fan blade.
As that throws the motor out of balance and heightens the sound factor. As it is
causing stress on the bearings, top and bottom. So unscrew the two screws at the bottom of the zipper bag. So that when you remove it from the machine, you will be able to look inside. Then take the bottom plate off, as well as the belt. Look inside, from where the zipper bag attaches. Using you fingers to turn the impellar fan, while you looking to see if there is a chipped or broken blade.
If so, stop using the machine. Get it repaired or do it your self if your so inclined. I'm will to bet, that is why your machine is so loud. Especially if you are cleaning carpet in Appartment or Building hallways. Where small stones and sharp or hard objects are picked up and pass on thru.
As for the clamping theory to the carpet. NOT good. Common sense would say "Get those brushes closer to the carpet, so they will sweep everything up" Wrong, Brushing is only 1/3 or 1/2 of the real cleaning process on carpet. It's all suction on bare floor/hard surface. Carpet also needs air flow to get the deep down dirt, then to carry the dirt away. Into the vacuum Bag.
Think about this, what happens on the end of the hose of a cannister vacuum. When you put your flat palm of your had over the end. The cannist motor gets loud. Plus there is no Air Flow. Now, start to pull your hand away. You hear the sound of rushing air and you feel it around you hand. Now make your hand wrap around the hose end. Like an attachment or extension wand. You feel all of the air that the motor is pulling toward the bag. Past the motor and returning into the room. That is Air Flow, which is an absolute need for clean carpet, floors anything. Plus it is necessary for the complete performance of the Vacuum cleaner.
Enough, one last thing. Do NOT use Hoover Convertable Belts on any of your Eureka Sanitaire uprights. They are way too tight and will, pull too hard on the bearings.


Post# 153678 , Reply# 13   9/29/2011 at 13:11 (4,564 days old) by twocvbloke ()        
"They are way too tight and will, pull too hard on the b

Only for Blender motors, the Pancake motors are too powerful for the "correct" belts, and said "correct" belts are too slack from new and thus burn out after 2 uses, whereas Hoover belts, being tighter, fit the bill and last a lot longer than the "correct" belts. My ZC-880 used about 3 belts for the first month I had it, when I changed to Hoover belts, that went to 3 Months on one belt, and it's still working (well, the motor's in the S663 at the moment, but still going it's job perfectly)... :)

Eurekas are tough vacs, they were built to last with little maintenance, just bags, belts and brush strips, in that order... :)


Post# 153746 , Reply# 14   9/29/2011 at 22:35 (4,564 days old) by broomvac (N/A)        
MOTORS AND BELTS

broomvac's profile picture
Starting off, both of your vacuums DO have a higher amperage pancake type motor. They come stock with that kind. But, there are two different types of pancake motors, old and new, but both are very good and durable. The picture of the motor posted by twocvbloke is an older style with the open-top upper bearing. The newer ones are the same amperage and have a very similar construction. (picture below). The main difference is that on the new one the upper bearing is more covered or sealed to make it last longer, and that makes the motors sound a little different. That is like listening to the difference between an International and a Cummins diesel, they sound alike, but not identical. Chances are, whichever of your Sanitaires was made later has the later pancake motor, which I consider to be a good thing, seeing as how it has identical performance to the older one, the only difference will be that the upper bearing should last longer since it is sealed away from dust and from drying out as quickly.

As for this belt issue, I highly recommend AGAINST using smaller belts than stock, because I have seen armatures get ruined by an overly tight belt. I used to have the older style pancake motor in my S661 before I rebuilt it and put in a brand new pancake style motor, and the old motor was ruined by the previous owner when he used a Hoover belt. In use, as with any vacuum, the belt pulley will heat up quite hot, and makes the armature shaft bend easier. Pair that with a brand new, overly tight Hoover belt, and that armature shaft CAN BEND! And mine did! So now the shaft wobbled about a sixteenth of an inch back and fort, scraping the fan on the underside of the motor and the fan housing, and worst of all, rubbing the belt on the metal plate covering the bottom of the housing. This cracks and shreds (imagine rubbing a rubber band on the edge of a table) any belt (hoover belt or not) you put in this machine within DAYS, not months, like all belts should last. You can also tell if your machine is doing this if you spot a skid mark, kind of looking like a tiny version of those that plane wheels leave on runways, on the inside of the metal plate. Also, it was not the belt pulley itself that bent, but the actual threaded section of the armature, so replacing the pulley that screwed on to the end did NOT remedy this problem. The armature was MESSED UP!

Now, I am not suggesting any of your vacuums are currently doing this, I am just warning you that if you decide to use non-Sanaire or non-Eureka belts, this could very well happen to you.

And for those of you who do have Sanitaire issues where you cannot get your Sanitaire belts to last a bit more than a week, check for shaft wobble and the skid mark.


Post# 153777 , Reply# 15   9/30/2011 at 10:41 (4,563 days old) by Sanifan ()        

This is great advice, guys. I'm learning a lot about the Sanitaires here.

I'm going to put the blue aside until I can examine the fan for chips or damage. I understand that the vibration and uneven forces from an imbalanced fan can stress and wear the bearings and other parts in the vacuum.

FWIW, I described the motor in the blue incorrectly. I said that looking through vent slots on either side of the metal cover, I could see the inside of the motor, and that it was surrounded by a cylindrical cage that had vertical bars. That's wrong. There is no cylindrical cage. What I was looking into was the motor's exhaust ports. Referencing Broomvacs pic of the pancake motor above, the ports are the rectangular apertures on the left and right sides of the motor. The port on the right has a white plastic zip tie coming out of the rectangular opening, which then loops around towards the top and back down through the side of the port. These ports do have vertical bars further in. You can see the motor through these ports.

I'm very curious to see if my vacs have the earlier or later motors. I do believe both of the vacs are late model units. The red is a year old and the blue looks to have very current styling. Looks just like the ones I've seen sold new in vac shops (except the s670 has been discontinued according to the Sanitaire site). I'm just guessing there. My next project is to figure out how to take the cover off to check. I wanna get everything it tip top operating condition!

For now I'm going to stick with the Eureka/Sanitaire belts to see if those work fine.

Thanks!



Post# 153778 , Reply# 16   9/30/2011 at 10:53 (4,563 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

No skidmarks on my plates with original belts or Hoover belts, and the pulley/armature spins straight and true, but still burns off belts no matter what I do to prevent it!!!

All I see here is scaremongering, if an armature bends, spend $10 on a new one, they're sold as disposable items anyway so they're sold cheap, it doesn't necessarily mean they're poor quality, they're just made to be replaced when they wear out, especially as the upper bearings are difficult to remove without causing more damage than the part is actually worth... :\

The solution to the belts burning off is well-thought out and well-practised, older Eureka uprights, even with the same motors fitted, will only take the correct RD belt, but somewhere down the line, the motor was either shifted forwards or the nozzle shortened, and thus the belts they have been producing for years no longer fit properly on the Pancake motors, so, the solution is to reduce the size of the belts, which solves the problem. That's what this thing known as "engineering" is all about, coming up with solutions to problems that have cropped up, it may not be official, but it works better than original...

And that newer style pancake motor still has an exposed bearing, it just features more plastic which likes to break when under tension, unlike metal which can flex & bend for many years before metal fatigue sets in and it breaks, but, by that time the bearings will have worn out and the rest of the vac would probably no longer exist... :\

There is only one issue I can think of that could cause overheating of belt, pulley and brushroll, and that is Sleeve Bearings in the brushroll, I have one in my S663 and I can hear the difference between the Ball Bearing and Sleeve Bearing brushrolls, the Sleeve bearing has more resistance and thus causes the motor to slow down, but the Ball bearing ones spin faster and the belts don't heat up as much. Modern Sanitaires will have Ball Bearing brushrolls, so the issue of overheating is just negligible, but on older Sleeve bearing models it could be a problem, but again, as yet I have not had a problem...


Post# 153807 , Reply# 17   9/30/2011 at 16:53 (4,563 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Fitting a smaller belt Will shorten the life of the main bearing and the motor eventually.I love the fact that people will disregard what the Engineers who designed a machine tell them and do there own thing.

Those machines have been on the market forever, the basic design dated back to the 50's maybe earlier. any teething problems have been worked out many years ago. these are not new products that are sold by the millions into domestic homes to last a year but commercial machines that are only bought due to there quality and longevity, If every sanitaire out there belt broke after two uses they wouldn't be in just about every hotel , school and office building across the USA.

 

If your belts are snapping that fast then the machine is set to close to the carpet causing the belt to overheat and snap

 

when vacuum designers choose a belt there is alot of testing that goes into choosing the correct tention belt. If you fit a smaller one you will over tention and damage the motor. we see it every day on many different vacuums. the customer comes in and says I fitted a new belt and all of a sudden the motor is making a noise.

If you have ever seen the pully of a vacuum motor that has a blue ish color to it that is from fitting a belt that is to small.That is heat causing the color 

 

when I was working in R&D we would test different belt tensions and if the belt was to small the spindle would often glow red and eventually melt the belt.

 

I like broomvac and most other guys who work on vacuums as there daily job would suggest you use the origional belt and save your motor

 

Gareth

 

 


Post# 153810 , Reply# 18   9/30/2011 at 17:51 (4,563 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

The only pulley I have seen that was blue from overheating was the one on my LegendII that my brother "borrowed" & trashed, when it was finally returned, the brushroll was just made of hair and of course completely jammed up, the belt got stuck and hey presto, ruined pulley, which is why I never let people borrow my vacs, especially the brother...

My Sanitaire though, the pulley is the right colour, and as I've said already it's straight and true, but the genuine belts just burn off and stop working after a few uses, so, I use Hoover Senior belts, and a year later since I started using them, there's no problems... :\

If the bearing goes, which seems unlikely given my experience to date, then it's a maintenance repair, it's not like it's the end of the world and it can't ever be repaired ever again.... :P

If my motors fall apart, I'll let you know, but I'm betting they won't... :P


Post# 153828 , Reply# 19   9/30/2011 at 22:22 (4,563 days old) by thissucks ()        

deal with the sanitiares is the belts will last a few months if it doesnt get overheated, setting too close even for one room will stretch the belt and will be useless in a couple weeks.

Post# 153832 , Reply# 20   9/30/2011 at 22:49 (4,563 days old) by broomvac (N/A)        
Not trying to scare anyone here..

broomvac's profile picture
...I'm just cautious from bad experiences I have had before, and trying to let other people see the possible consequences of using parts not designed for the vacuums they are being installed in. I agree with gsheen on that the people who designed Sanitaires are not idiots (obviously), and as a matter of fact, have designed one of the most successful and widely used vacuums ever.

As for replacing armatures, I find it more convenient to simply replace the whole motor, which costs $35 at most places including Hesco, and includes not only a brand new motor, but also an entirely new fan and belt pulley. The fan and belt pulley are like $10 if you buy them separately. Not to mention the fact that installing a motor takes like 10 minutes.

And about those upper bearing covers and the plastic vs metal, I am wondering why it would matter which could withstand impact and tension better, for the motors are protected INSIDE the vacuums, aren't they? Unless you are using the machine without a cover, and you are slamming the motor into things, the motor would never have to experience any impacts or tensions anyway. I would much prefer the added upper bearing protection provided by the plastic cover over having a metal top with a much more exposed bearing. If you are concerned that the new motors still do not provide a "true" sealed bearing, you could engineer a round piece of felt to cover the top bearing, doing what many vacuum makers do, and make added protection for that upper bearing. Though, even without that homemade piece of felt, the new motors still seem to offer more protection for the upper bearing than the older pancake motors.

Sanifan--

Checking to see what motor you have in either of your vacuums is very simple. For the blue one, you should flip the vacuum over, and remove two springs holding the metal hood on using a pair of needle nose pliers, and then flip the vacuum back over and unscrew the screw in the middle of the height adjustment knob. Pull the knob off and remove the metal hood covering the vacuum. It is that easy.

As for the red one, the process is essential the same, except for the part of pulling the springs off their hooks on the underside of the base. Instead of springs, there are two screws to be removed in approximately the same place on the base. Everything else should be the same.

Also, based on your descriptions on how the machines behave when they are used, both of them sound to be working fine. I am pretty sure that the only reason they sound different is because they probably have slightly different motors, which you can confirm if you take the hoods off of the vacuums. I would DEFINITELY say it is fine and safe to use either of them, including the blue S670.


Post# 153838 , Reply# 21   10/1/2011 at 00:51 (4,563 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

The best way to damage a Sanitaire is running with a slack belt, because a slack belt is like dragging your hand over a table, gradually the friction builds up and heats your hand to an unbearable level, and that's what causes the "blue pulley syndrome", aswell as the BananaGroomer issues (my C12 came with a bent brushroll, due to a severely worn belt being used)...

Okay, so maybe I didn't put it into the right terms, the Hoover belts provide better Traction, like how a set of chunky tyres on a 4x4 gives traction offroad, the RD belts are like using F1 racing slicks in a muddy field, they just spin and burn out, meaning little or no movement of the brushroll when set to the correct height for the carpet involved (for me I have my 8 position Dial-a-Naps set to "3", and the 6-position to "2" for the commercial-grade carpet in the living room), which causes the pulley to heat up, the brushroll's belt channel to heat up, and hey presto we have either a snapped belt or bent metal, coupled with the awful stench of burning rubber...

Another car analogy, when you have an engine with a worn belt screeching on the alternator pulley under the bonnet, is it overheating because it's too tight? Nope, it's screeching and overheating because it's too loose, causing, you guessed it, heat damage, pulleys turn a funny rainbow colour, the belt slips, screeches, smokes and finally snaps, and then your battery dies after a few miles cos you have no power from the alternator, or you end up roasting hot and sweating like a pig cos your A/C pump isn't pumping!! Fun eh? :P

Anyway, I don't know what they did to the vacuums since the original design for the Eureka upright, but they must have moved the brushroll back or the motor forwards since the 260 or 265 (I forgot which model it was that I was chatting to someone about) when they designed the Sanitaire series, aswell as the later Eureka upright series based on the same chassis & motor designs, and neglected to adjust the length of the belts, thus causing the problems of wobbly pulleys and brushrolls with a 6 degree bend in them, and this error is why I use the Hoover belts... :)

I know it seems like I'm being a pain in the rear with this subject, but, when it boils down to it, there is a flaw with Sanitaires that has not been officially rectified, and given how the production of them is in Mexico or some other cheapskate lazy-arse "That'll do" attitude country, it's doubtful it ever will be, and thus people like myself come up with solutions (although I did not come up with the Hoover belt solution, I was given that as a suggestion when I got my first Sanitaire) to problems nobody really sees because they're not actually looking properly, regardless of whether someone runs a vac repair business or worked in the R&D department of a vac company or whatever...

Anyway, I'll leave that there, I need to go to bed, was meant to go like two hours ago.... :S


Post# 153843 , Reply# 22   10/1/2011 at 04:01 (4,562 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

David 

 

fist of all your comment 

"In mexico or some other cheapskate  lazy-arse "That will do" country" is offensive, Have you ever been there.

I have , to the factory and there is nothing cheap or lazy about it. I have been very privileged to go to many of these factorys were vacuums are made  when I worked In R&D.

Those peope work very hard for there meager money. You work or you don't eat there is no government back up plan for them.

 

second of all if you want "That will do" attitude look no further than your own country. My dad been British always owned British cars like a Rover sd1 and later on Jaguars, When we moved to SA he continued with them often importing them if they were not available locally as he was a proud of his country, however those were some of the most badly assembled and made cars, when they were made at all! if the workers werent on a strike and now they are owned by the Chinese and Indians. I have never been in a car that falls apart like they do, Not even the Chinese cars.

 

 

Fiting bigger wheels to your car , will give it better traction, it will also wear out the wheel bearing faster, go ask any kid with 23" rims on his Honda civic.

 

I have never ever come across a vacuum that was damaged by a loose belt, they snap. A normal cars engine spins at 7000rpm but in reality spends most of its life between  2000 and 3500 rpm. A vacuums motor spins at any thing from 15000rpm to 40000rpm depending on the make, they simply melt there way thru a non fitting belt in minutes.

 

As for your warped brush roll , we get those all the time on hoovers and on the odd Electrolux c as they were called here. Its caused by to tight belts

 

As said previously , these machines have been in existence along time, they are sold to many commercial places who buy them because they work, If they snapped belts like you say yours does then they would not sell. Commercial clients do not buy machines for looks they buy them to work and work hard . If they snapped there belts after 2 uses there would be allot of angry  customers out there and there who wouldn't buy them any more, but they do buy them so they must work.


Post# 153845 , Reply# 23   10/1/2011 at 06:39 (4,562 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

love 'em or hate 'em-Sanitaire vacuums ARE the most commonly used commercial vacuum cleaners in the US.Have things going for them-reliable-work well on commercial type carpets,easily serviced.The University,Hospital,and many businesses in Greenville,NC like any other place in the US,own and use Sanitaires and use and abuse them.the University(ECU) has a large fleet of Sanitaires.The machines come back for more-even after picking up mice,drywall peices and ust,whatever.In most-just replace the brushstrips,fan,belt,or bag.Any of those can be replaced in minutes.And the user can do it!Not to mention the motor pulley if it was worn or the wrong belt used on it.I have Koblentz(similar to Sanitaire) and Sanitaires made in Mexico-the quality of these is very good.The Koblentz vacuums can use some of the same parts as Sanitaires-Belts,bags for the most part.don't know on fans-usually koblentz have metal fans,and metal bodies.This gives them a slight durability edge on Sanitaire.Both have transparent fan case intake covers so you can see the condition of the fan or clogs on the fancase discharge to the bag.Too bad most users don't look there.

Post# 153858 , Reply# 24   10/1/2011 at 10:49 (4,562 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

I haven't been to mexico, but, tell the people on the US-side of the US-Mexico border that mexicans are hard working and responsible, when they're happily busy doing nothing but sapping up US tax dollars living on state benefits all because they hopped over the border and popped out a kid making them instant citizens (though that latter bit is more to do with dumb US laws)... :\

And as for British engineering, I agree, it was utterly useless when it came to the nationalised corporations (if the name starts with "British", like British Leyland, British Gas, British Rail, British Steel, British Coal, British Petroleum, it was nationalised), that's why we no longer even have Rover because they were so badly built and the unions demanded more money than they deserved for their shoddy work, and now they don't have jobs, thanks to the god ol' unions....

And I'm not saying anything about hating Sanitaires, I love 'em, I just need something that doesn't melt it's own belts after a few uses... :\

I still believe the basic and very simple engineering principle in this thread is being missed though, when you run a Hoover belt for even 30 seconds, it warms up and slackens to the same tension as a brand new, unused, fresh out of the packet Eureka RD belt, so if the belt was "too tight" then the Eureka RD belt should never ever be used becasue it too is too tight!!! It maintains that tension for several months, no hot belt smells, no stopped brushroll when going from carpet to rug, no squeal on powerup, just reliable cleaning performance, and like I say, if my motor breaks through destroyed bearings, I'll let you know, but I have a feeling that won't be for about 10 years... :D


Post# 153866 , Reply# 25   10/1/2011 at 13:05 (4,562 days old) by Sanifan ()        
Further observations...

I had a chance to check out my two Sanitaires a little further and I think for sure the red one has the new covered pancake motor. Glancing through the slots on the top, I can tell it's the one in the pic that broomvac posted. I'm sure the one in the blue is also has a later covered pancake motor; although I can only see through the slotted side vents, the black plastic housing and square vents look the to be that of the later model.

I also had a chance to check the fan on the blue. No damage, just light wear as you'd expect after a bit of use. I've come to the conclusion that the sound of the blue is not abnormally loud. It is loud, though. Louder than the red. It has more of a growl/roar; the red, more of a whine. The blue's actually not as loud as I remembered it being earlier.

I played around with the red one, tried to adjust the brush height and tried the different settings on the adjustment dial. Well, the brushroll can probably be set lower, but in my case it lowered it to the point that the belt was just about touching the bottom plate. So I left it at the default setting. (The roll is not actually designed to be lowered, but if you invert the rubber mountings, it does lower it). Again, I found that "2" was best on my carpet. On "3" I could hear the brush lightly swiping the carpet on some spots but missing it on others. The issue still remains, though. On "2" the vac is still sucking onto the carpet. There's an interesting thing I noticed as I push the vac forward. I would describe it as an oscillation. At first I thought it had something to do with the brushes hitting the carpet. After kneeling down and looking at the side of the vac while pushing, I realized that the vac was clamping, releasing, clamping, releasing. At a normal speed push, this would happen about 3 times a second. Interestingly, this only happened during a push, never on the pull, and only sometimes. Also, despite the nozzle being sucked onto the carpet, I noticed the two little vents on the sides, the 1/2" wide x 1/4" high ones, were clear the whole time. There was airflow shooting through those. Whether there was optimal airflow given the clamping, I don't know.

After playing around, I went and vacuumed the apt hallways with the red. It did suck onto the carpet a majority of the time, but the carpet did look very, very clean. Arguable cleaner than the bagless Sanitaire sc5845 upright that I usually use to clean the hallways. Feeling the bag, though, there didn't seem to be as much stuff in there as usual. That may be because I vacuumed previously a few days earlier than usual. Time will tell.

Thank you for the disassembly instructions. When I get the chance I'll take things apart and take a look at what's in there.

I appreciate the lively debate. I'm learning a lot from the discussion.

Thanks!





Post# 153868 , Reply# 26   10/1/2011 at 13:55 (4,562 days old) by broomvac (N/A)        
Does your Blue one sound like this?

broomvac's profile picture
If it does, it has the older pancake motor.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO broomvac's LINK


Post# 153870 , Reply# 27   10/1/2011 at 13:57 (4,562 days old) by broomvac (N/A)        
and, Does your red one sound like this?

broomvac's profile picture
Because this is what the newer pancake motor sounds like.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO broomvac's LINK


Post# 153891 , Reply# 28   10/1/2011 at 19:39 (4,562 days old) by Sanifan ()        
Newer, I think...

Well, they both sound more like the newer pancake motor. I found that the red does sound closer to the blue when the nozzle isn't sucked right down to the carpet. Still, the blue is louder.

Neither has the lighter, higher pitched sound of the older motor.

As I play around with these direct air Sanitaires, the more appreciation I have of what a great vacuum they are. Especially the blue. They remind me of a coarse, powerful muscle car. That's compared to the powerful but more refined qualities of the bypass vacs that I've owned or used, including Riccars, Dustcare, Carpet Pro, Kenmore, Sebo Felix, Sharp, etc. Those are also great vacuums, but they don't exude the feel of raw power that the Sanitaire direct airs do. Especially the metal covered ones.

Btw, the metal covered blue vac seem much higher in quality than the plastic covered red one. Small things like the cord hooks, the handle, the feel and action of the height adjustment dial, are all a notch up from the plastic top one. The lesser vacuum has a slightly cheapish feel to it. I guess they go premium on the metal ones. I like it better overall! Heavy, for sure, but feels like a Cadillac rather than a Ford.


Post# 153893 , Reply# 29   10/1/2011 at 19:51 (4,562 days old) by Sanifan ()        
The red sounds like this...

Actually, the red sounds the one in this link. I think it is the same vacuum as mine but with a different bag. Sorry but the vacuuming part is near the end and kinda short. But it does demonstrate what the vac sounds like.

Again, when I look through the top vents, the part of the motor I can see looks just like the top of the newer pancake. So that's what I think it is until I take it apart to confirm.

Thanks!





CLICK HERE TO GO TO Sanifan's LINK


Post# 154483 , Reply# 30   10/7/2011 at 22:54 (4,556 days old) by broomvac (N/A)        
Amperage

broomvac's profile picture
Look on the underside of the machines and tell me what the amperage for each machine is.

Post# 154485 , Reply# 31   10/7/2011 at 23:52 (4,556 days old) by Sanifan ()        

Hi.

I was curious, too, because they make a lightweight version of the grey topped red vac. That one has a 5 amp motor.

The red one I have is the sc688 which has the full sized 7 amp motor. Just checked this afternoon. The blue has a 7 amp motor as well.

So the difference in sound probably is not a difference in motor size I think.


Post# 154486 , Reply# 32   10/7/2011 at 23:57 (4,556 days old) by Sanifan ()        

Come to think of it, perhaps the link I posted was a video of the lightweight vac, the one with the 5 amp motor. In that case, I have a different motor than that one. Funny, though, because the one in the video does sound close the red one I have. Interesting, huh?

Post# 154487 , Reply# 33   10/8/2011 at 00:10 (4,556 days old) by broomvac (N/A)        
Yep

broomvac's profile picture
When I saw the video I noticed the man was advertising a 7 amp vacuum identical to your red one except with a shake out bag, yet the careful observer will note that the vacuum shown running is NOT the actual one advertised. If you look at the bottom of the bag of the one running, you will notice it is not the shake out type. Also, I immediately noticed the sound of the 5 amp motor in that vacuum shown running, when it should have the 7 amp motor.

So the clip of the vacuum shown running is in fact that of one of the "Lightweight" five amp vacs you mentioned.

Both vacs featured in the videos I linked use 7 amp motors, and the picture of the new style pancake motor I posted a ways up is that of a 7 amp new style pancake motor as well

I hope that clears things up a bit.


Post# 154488 , Reply# 34   10/8/2011 at 00:12 (4,556 days old) by broomvac (N/A)        
Ha

broomvac's profile picture
Sorry about the redundant post! You replied while I was typing.

Post# 154549 , Reply# 35   10/8/2011 at 12:55 (4,555 days old) by Sanifan ()        
D'oh!!!

OK, I solved the clamping problem. I changed the belt and the problem went away entirely. D'oh!!! That's the first thing I should have done.

Funny, cause I when I bought the vacuum I checked to see if the brushroll was spinning. Yes, it was. I sniffed for any burning smells. No, there weren't. I thought the belt was fine.

In a desperate attempt to figure it out, I change the belt. Wala! There's no clamping now. I'm not sure how the airflow from a properly tightened brushroll works to break that clamping, or if it's just the physical pushing of the brush and beaters, but it performs very close to my blue one now.

Sounds much closer, too. There's a whine of the motor and the low rumbling growl is actually the beaters and brushes working the carpet. It's just as loud as my blue!

OK, so I learned something here: When facing a problem, hit all the fundamentals first! Thanks for all the help, guys.


Post# 154600 , Reply# 36   10/9/2011 at 00:37 (4,555 days old) by broomvac (N/A)        
I'm glad I could help!

broomvac's profile picture
Yep, the brushes and beaters do help break the seal when the belt is strong enough to turn it fast enough. In fact, the whole purpose behind the beaters is to constantly shake the carpet away from the nozzle and keep it from sealing.

A tip for you: When changing the bag in a Sanitaire, I ALWAYS change the belt as well. About every six months I change both in my Sanitaire.

The reasoning behind this is that the more you use the vacuum, the belt slowly weakens, but the bag slowly restricts airflow and suction at the same time. So, even though the belt is very slowly losing traction over months, as on any vacuum, the suction is slowly dropping as well, which means the carpet has less of a tendency to want to seal to the nozzle, meaning the belt has less work to do, and the loss of traction is not very noticeable. But, if you put a fresh bag in the vacuum, and you are using the same belt you used with the previous, and more clogged bag, you will notice the belt will struggle greatly to turn the roller. That is because the carpet wants to seal to the nozzle more when the bag is fresh rather than used, and if you are using a weak belt when you have a fresh bag, the result will be a vacuum that seals itself to the floor and prevents the roller from turning very well, if at all. That is why I always like to change the bag and belt at the same time in my Sanitaire.


Post# 154613 , Reply# 37   10/9/2011 at 04:01 (4,554 days old) by Sanifan ()        
Thank you for the insight...

I'll be changing my belts more often, for sure.

I've collected some Eureka specced belts that are a bit older (Probably 80's and some from the 70's) that are in the unopened package (either suction wrapped to cardstock, or sealed an a plastic pouch). I'm assuming that they're the same size as the Eureka/Sanitaire belt of current production? I could use these older belts and get the same tension as the current crop?

With the discussion of Hoover vs. Eureka/Sanitaire sized belts, it's a bit ironic that I have a couple sets of Hoover branded belts that are designed to fit all Eureka uprights (It's printed on the card). Lol.

As I'm having no problem with Eureka belts, I'll stick to those I think.



Post# 274652 , Reply# 38   4/3/2014 at 15:58 (3,647 days old) by vacuumfan96 (South East Michigan )        
Sanitaire SC886, no problems!

I have never had a problem with belts on any of my Sanitaires! :)


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