First of all, let me say that the new club website is wonderful, and I think it's safe to say we all enjoy it. Secondly, Fred Nelson, you are doing a great job as webmaster. However we have a problem, and I plead guilty to being a party to that problem. I have posted a couple of items which would be amusing to a few close friends, but which could potentially offend other members. Other members have done the same, and certain members have done quite a bit of this. Some of us who go back a long time - I've been a VCCC member since 1993 - remember a time when the club was small and everyone knew everyone else. Such is not the case now. (However I enjoy meeting new friends from the club membership all the time.) We all have little "inside jokes" within our circles, and sometimes these end up on the forum. We must all remember that there are participants whom we don't know, nor do we know their sensibilities. So we must all try to put the best foot forward in posts we submit here. It will also mean less headaches for our webmaster, Fred Nelson.

Clay:
When you and I joined the VCCC, and there were just twelve of us, Bob Taber had to 'let new memebers in'. You couldn't just 'join' the club. As a CLUB, a new member had to 'fit in' with the other members. Bob actually CALLED people on the phone and spoke to them 'in person'. Today, this is not the case, and you can get all kinds of people (some nice, others not so nice) who join the club and nothing is known about them.

Today's VCCC tries to be all things to all people. There was never a need for a forum 'gestapo' in the 'old days' because, well, we didn't see a need for a forum. We (the VCCC) in fact put OFF going on the internet for a very long time. Time was, when the newsletters served to connect everyone. Today, the newsletters are redundant. Everything you need (ads, articles, etc.) is to be found for FREE on the website.

Even when I became the first elected President of the club, we still didn't allow just 'anyone' to join. They had to have a collection of VINTAGE cleaners and they had to 'fit in' with the group's aesthetics and personalities. I remember rejecting a number of new 'applicants' because we figured them to be people we probably wouldn't want to hang around with for an entire weekend. YOU were in on some of the selection process and no doubt remember this time.

Contrary to what people might think, the 'old club' was a wonderful place. We never had any arguements among members about what someone 'posted'. Quite the opposite. IF someone made a comment about liking or not liking a certain machine, it was taken with a grain of salt. Remember how much Bob loved the Electrolux LX? You and I thought they were very heavy and not one of the best Lux models. I remember you telling Bob (and the rest of the club) about the time you threw a MODEL G Electrolux down the basement stairs, destroying it, because you were so mad at the bag clogging while you were cleaning. Bob was horrified. But he didn't go balistic, unlike today when the forum police would have deleted your posts. We never had to 'watch what we said' because we were ALL friends, AND we actually called each other on the phone during the year.

Which brings me to the point. There's certainly a need for etiquete on the forum. That to me means no curse words. Apparently the guardians of morality also feel it means no 'inside jokes', no double meanings, nothing that hints of anything untoward or unseemly. OK, so be it. We now have a bunch of children who apparently like to look at the forum and we have to be considerate of them. Don't want their parents to get mad. Bob would have NEVER allowed anyone under 18 to join the club. Remeber how much trouble WE had being allowed to join? We were VAC SHOP OWNERS, and Bob considered us to be the devil. I practically had to beg Bob to let me join. Can you imagine someone calling Morgan and talking for several hours just to be 'allowed' to join the VCCC today? But that's how it USED to be.

All this political correctness and watching out for children has certainly put a damper on things, but has not destroyed the fun of the club for me. I still enjoy, more than anything else, going to the conventions and taking apart vacuums in front of club members, answering their questions by PROVING what I say about sweepers. I enjoy the contest, although after all these years, we know which cleaners will 'win' without having to enter them.

I'm all for proper etiquete on the forum. But let's not let the 'fun' be taken out of the club because we have to pander to the few people who get their nose out of joint over a bit of humor. After all, these are JUST old vacuums we are talking about. And with the vast majority (over 98%) of the club being made up of single men, it would be difficult indeed to run a 'g' rated club in an 'r' rated world.

yak yak yak yak yak yak....

Tom G.,

I remember when I joined the club and it was quite different then than it is now. Because of you, I met Clay and have visited him several times in Lenoir and now Hudson. When the three of us got together and spoke out of earshot of anyone, some of the funniest things I have ever heard came from the two of you. I'm well into my mid 50's and "PC" is something that has come about in my lifetime.

There more it developed, the more I found it difficult. And, being a Gay Jew, I heard more than my share of jokes about Gays and Jews. However, because I could laugh at myself, I could laugh at many of those jokes and still do with select folks in the right place at the right time. As you know, I don't take myself too seriously. And, many members have experienced my self-deprecating humor.

Like any organization or company that grows, the more it changes and sometimes WAY too fast. We look back at the past with fondness and wax poetic. In my 30 years of being an airline employee the change has been beyond explanation. Now my airline, (and me!), is facing a possible merger with Delta when we haven't even finished with the America West merger. Yikes!! Thank goodness for books like, "Who Moved My Cheese?", to help me with the paradigm shifts. I can't even refer to my colleagues as, "the girls", (and I mean the real ones!), as that is considered derogatory and a form of harassment that can lead to disciplinary measures and even termination for crying out loud!

My point in all this is that the world is constantly changing and only moving in one direction----forward. At times it drives me crazy but I usually end up jumping on board as I don't want to be left behind.

As the club has grown and my intention as President was always to make us available to the hidden collectors and let them know we are here, (not to increase the treasury, although that does help), and as more people starting attending conventions, the club became more structured as it had to, to survive without chaos.

At the "general" meetings, more and more things were voted on and implimented. ie: at Louisville the membership voted to launch a website, in Chicago the membership voted to allow minors to be a part of the club. I was vehemently opposed to this and still am for the obvious reasons. However, I had to adjust and bite the bullet. That decision has resulted in some problems and/or issues but they are always resolved.

It would be great to call members often but who has the time? I know groups of friends call each other and communication today is by email whether I like it or not. Some members have referred to there being "cliques" within the club. Well, NEWS ALERT, that happens in every club, in every work place, in every factory and in large families. I doubt it will end in our lifetime. And, as someone that has a "vacuum family" within the club, I like it and think it is vital.

I guess the days of the club being 40 members or less is over. Morgan told me he is sending out 148 renewals for members. It makes me think of the old Virginia Slim cigarette ads, "You've come a long way baby."

I must say that I am truly glad we are not doing selective membership anymore! Aside from the occasional schisms that happen here or in any large group, the members of this club are some of the finest folks I have ever met and served. After attending St. Louis and missing LA, I was surprised at the number of new people and the changes.

I often tease with my airline friends about our changes and I then go into my best Ashley Wilkes, "character" quoting him from, "Gone With The Wind", when he says to Scarlett something to this effect: "My dear don't look back.........it tugs at your heart till you think you can't stand it."

So, Tom, as one of the older guys I'll share my wisdom of age with you. Let's continue to reminisce but not look back to far or too often as it may tug at your heart till you think you can't stand it.

Charlie W. in Fabulon.

What was the point of this?

What do you think the point of this is? Does there need to be a point other than to express my feelings like other posters do?

air-waycharlie. Scroll up and note that I was quoting someone else and not addressing you at all. And be more careful next time.

Duly noted Doc and aye, aye! I think I'll go adminster some ether to myself!

Some children must play I guess

Skip...

I'm a comparative newcomer and unknowm amongst the VCCC membership. I've had to work through every single convention and mini-meet except for about one-third of the St. Louis meeting this year. I don't know too many people personally. I know Tom G., Derreck, Marty, and John P. because I live close to them. Otherwise and unfortunately, I can't claim to have gotten to know anyone else very well.

But, even hindered by that lack of familiarity, I am keenly aware that the history of the membership of this club includes some interpersonal dissension that is the so-called "elephant in the living room" in this club. I think we're used to the bantering, even when it deteriorates to derision. We're also used to frequent sexual innuendo that people used to call "camp". It's commonplace in personal get-togethers and one-to-one communication. And, it has continued on this open forum, as best evidenced by one poster referring to another as "sack-licker". So, it's a known quantity that the behavior of this group won't be genteel. I'd be surprised if that suddenly changed in any medium.

To open the forum to the public without qualification is to "air the dirty laundry" of the membership to everyone. I'm sure the deciding body considered that, IF it anticipated it, and chose to accept that drawback in deference to other benefits. But, if what is happening here was NOT anticipated, perhaps that same body may want to reconsider its decision, in light of these developments. I think it's very plain that the bickering will not cease. That's not in the behavioral cards of this group. (I can't prove that, but it's my instinct.)

I think the public opening of this forum was well-intended, but the dynamic here leads me to conclude that either the conversations have to be strictly moderated (which won't fly and also would "throw the baby out with the bathwater") or the forum be closed to non-members.

i see a third possibility. that everyone who posts take extra care to be courteous and polite. closing the forum to non-members wouldnt have avoided the spats that have occured since the most wicked behaviour came from established members. i think the majority of vacuumland users support the webmasters and morgan frazier's judgement. i look forward to their thoughts on this. and speaking of babies and bathwater, the "derision" and "dissent" comes from a very select few. changing everything around due to the undisciplined behaviour of a few one or two members might be throwing the baby out.

You are both right because the spats that I have seen on this forum have been strictly members of the VCCC and I have not seen or have notice any spats that have involved non members. For while I was totally not even coming on here because I was very frusated but what someone has said about me, not on this forum but face to face to some members at a recent mini meet. the thing that angered me was this person has never met me nor has even talked to me on the phone. but the thing is We have to learn to accept someone's opinion and not get upset with that person because We are all different and all have separte opinions, A awhile back on one of the threads I was involved in a mud slinging match with a member but after thinking about it it just isn't worth it, I have made up my mind to totally ignore anyone who I feel says something negative about me and not shoot back something at them. because in my situation I have never met anyone from the VCCC in person so I really can't say anything about them now I do have some very near and dear friends from the VCCC that I talk to on a regular basis on the phone and I guess those few I can somewhat say I know them but not 100%but again We all just have to look in the other direction when something is said that upsets us and remember we do have some very young folks here that We need to set an example for them and have patience with them because they are young and in the learning stage and as someone said they are our future. Again I hope and pray that everyone will think twice before slinging any mud here so We can all enjoy this and also learn from it

Skip...

Gentlemen,

I would respectfully ask that you NOT close this forum to non-members of the VCCC. In the brief time I've been posting here, I've learned a great deal about one of my hobbies, and I have encountered some terrific, helpful folks. This is a fun site, one I check several times a day. I'd like to think I've contributed some things of general interest to the conversation.

Having said that, I'm not a VCCC member, and I'm not likely to become one. There's a reason for that.

No, I don't mind the in-jokes, or the innuendo. At age 46, there's not a whole lot I haven't heard, and whatever two consenting adults choose to do together is their business, not mine. And I certainly don't mind, in fact I enjoy, a spirited discussion now and then.

But I do have a problem with those discussions turning into petty, vicious personal attacks on people's character. That's not why I'm here.

I've seen this happen all too frequently on the old VacWeb, IVacuums, whatsthebest-vacuum.com, and most recently here. From an outsider's view, it appears those conflicts played a major role in shutting down both the VacWeb and IVacuums forums. In EVERY case, such incidents have involved at least one VCCC member -- often the same one. No, I'm not naming names, because blaming specific indivduals isn't my point.

That tells me there are some people in the VCCC that I really don't care to meet. That's my loss, because I don't doubt the vast majority of members are good people. The vast majority of folks I've encountered here, both VCCC members and non-members are good people. But it only takes one troublemaker to spoil the experience.

As for the young people, sure, that requires a little bit of forethought sometimes, but what's wrong with that? They are the future of vacuum collecting, guys. They add energy and enthusiasm. Look at what young Kyle alone has done for us in terms of positive media exposure!

I ask the club to keep the forums open to give those of us in this hobby of collecting machines that pick up dirt an outlet to discuss our passions and learn from one another. We can have fun and conduct a civilized discussion without the backbiting and nastiness.

Thanks for reading.

Rick C.

Innuendo (n. italian suppository)

Patrick, I couldn't have said it better myself. I completely agree with you and I too have not had the opportunity to build many close relationships within the VCCC. Those friendships I have cultivated evolved into strong and lasting bonds, which I am certain will last a lifetime. As Charlie said and I assume you agree, there will be and always has been cliques in organized groups. It is a natural thing because some personalities meld better than others. Speaking for myself though, I do not close my mind in being receptive to those who associate with some I may not particularly care for, especially if I have never met them.

Charlie, in your infinate wisdom, I feel you summed up the development of the Club most accurately and the comparison to the workplace you illustrated is a perfect example of why people should behave themselves in a public arena (notice I said "public"). You and I are born of the same era and have witnessed extreme changes from when we began working to the present time. In managing people, I have attended many seminars and training classes on how to be "P.C." I site an example of something I had to resolve between employees that report to me. Two women were talking among themselves, when one of them took something from her purse and showed it to the other. It was inappropriate to share this in the workplace but the two women thought it was between themselves. Unbeknownst to them, a third person observed what was being shared and she reported it to be offensive to her. The end result was the individual displaying inappropriate behavior was issued a written disciplinary warning for her actions. As a Management employee, it is mandatory that I take action or risk personal liability in addition to the Company being in danger of a lawsuit. Yes, "the times they are a changin", and before "something is blowin in the wind", people should think before they speak. It is also imparitive in a forum that one considers there are no voice inflections to hear, only words to read, which leaves room for conjecture. What may sound one way through vocal communication can be interpreted in totally another by reading it. I have seen this occur because when someone I know well writes a post, I have no question about what was said while others who do not know the person have taken offense.

In closing, even though some do not agree that the Forum should be open to everyone, the fact remains that it is and we should all be mindful of such. Otherwise, our intent of making the Forum public (to generate interest in the VCCC and share information) could boomerang. After all, in allowing minors to become Club members (I voiced my sentiments on this subject at the Portland Convention), it is the parent who is required to be the member until the minor is 18 years of age. Think about it, if we do not behave in this arena, a parent could question if our Conventions/Mini Meets involve the same antics.

Robb Castaldo (the wild Italian)

P.S. Pete, Innuendo n. pl - An indirect, oblique or subtle implication in expression, usually derogatory in nature; a hint.

There probably needs to be a sign to remind the majority of us: CHILDREN AT PLAY! I love the VacuumLand website because there are so many knowledgeable people here. But when I see something not nice, a cuss word, something sick (s*xual), I often cringe, as there are other ways of wording these remarks. For example, when I see the da** word, you could: a. leave it out, or b. find a substitute word. When it comes to saying somthing mean to another person, don't say it at all. And when it comes to somthing s*xual, don't say it at all. I don't like to hear it, and I am sure I have supporters. I guess being a kid helps me to spread this knowledge a little easier than being an adult. Tom G.: you are an amazing person!! And BTW, most of us on this thread have got it set about what TO say and what NOT to say. Thanks again!

Very sincerely,
Kyle Owen

At my age now and in the business I am in there is NO NAME that I can be called that I have not already been called many many times. (and some true) I enjoy looking at the person and saying "thank you I will try to be the BEST one you have EVER known" Keep in mind the ones that sling the mud are the ones that are dirty first! As far as the sexual stuff who cares what one does or doesn't do.. It sure not like your the lone ranger. (oooh loved Tonto) SO, com'on guys this is a WONDERFUL site and our webmaster should be HAILED! For his haard work, dedication and putting up with A L L of us!

As a newcomer to the VCCC, I didn't know anyone else except the "crossovers" from the washer club that I had the opportunity to meet and talk to previously, namely Terry, Roger, Charlie W, Fred N, Reggie, Scott, and Greg. This forum, in my opinion, has allowed me to learn about other fellow members and has opened up a LOT of interesting discussions. I have some pretty thick skin when it comes to tolerance of behavior and saying certain things in posts (and even I am known to be quite brash and opinionated at times), and nothing on here will be enough to make me leave. Quite the contrary, some of the supposedly "questionable" things members have said have had me rolling on the floor!

I paid an additional year in dues to join this club immediately after my 18th birthday for the rest of 2006, and it has been worth it 10 times over. I cannot wait for 2007 to roll around so I can attend my first meeting and FINALLY meet everyone else! I just received my 2007 membership renewal form, and I'm donating the full $20 to the website because it has opened up so many different discussions with fellow members. Thank you Fred for your hard work.

--Austin

I just want to say, regarding Kyle's "Children Present - Please Clean It Up" posting, I really feel badly sometimes for him and the other underage members of the Forum when postings get campy, off-color, or suggestive.

I personally think that kind of stuff is TOTALLY inappropriate in the presence of children. If member can't keep it clean, then we need to exclude minors from coming in here. It's that simple.

I have expressed VERY STRONG opinions about this -- many times -- to the VCCC Board, expressing warnings to them that adult and suggestive content could place the entire Club in jeopardy by exposing the membership to all sorts legal trouble if one of those children's parents saw this stuff and complained to the authorities about it ---- but, sad to say, my complaints have fallen on deaf ears. I guess it will take the FBI or Interpol showing up at someone's front door for it to stop.

It seems some "mature" (??) grown-ups just can't control themselves, and they become QUITE agitated when it is suggested that they post more responsibly and sensitively, with a broader view of the entire membership and just not of themselves and their little cliques.

Personally, I don't like all that stuff either -- the off-color vocabulary, camping, suggestiveness, etc. And I'm not a minor. I just don't care for it. In fact, it really turns me off after a while. That kind of stuff, much more than the food fights and name-calling, discourages me from wanting to participate here. I certainly couldn't care less about the AutomaticWasher forum because of the tenor of so many of the postings there.

(How ironic it is, really, that people would dump so much DIRT into a site devoted to WASHING MACHINES!)

There is so much filth in the world, at every turn. You just can't get away from it anymore no matter where you go. TV, radio, movies, music concerts, sporting events, the Internet [an absolute cesspool], the print media, just walking down the street -- it's a nonstop barrage of obscenities, profanity and titillation.

Whatever happened to graceful refinement when discoursing in public?

It's really very sad, and a very lucid commentary on modern society that we are ALL obliged to wallow in this stuff 24/7 by those who foist it upon us.

It would be SO nice to have ONE place where people can find respite from offcolor talk and campy chatter. But no, those who wish to say as they wish will ensure that even here, we have to be exposed to provocative conversations. How DARE someone presume to CENSOR them??!

No, I'm no saint and I don't walk on water. I am as guilty as other people of sometimes getting a bit racy. But in light of Kyle's plea for "cleanliness" and just a deeper awareness of how I really just don't like it myself, I am going to redouble my efforts to be nothing but a perfect gentleman. Not just here, but in my existence wherever my life-path takes me. And I think it would be great if others would try to do the same.

"Ever Onward And Upward"

Sorry Charles but I don't totally agree with you and I'm surprised at your admonishment of the washer site. I think it's a great forum and there is certainly little to none of the thinly veiled hatred going on in there that happens in here. Heated debate yes, innuendos aplenty but personal attacking is non-existant. As for minors, well that's up to their parents isn't it who should by all accounts be checking in here once in awhile and deciding for them. I draw the line at personal attacks, sexual explicitiness not innuendos or a bit of camp and lastly people having a Kramer spewing vulgarities.

I get enough of the sexual stuff at school. I did not expect to find it here. Vacuums are something I love best. Vacuums were my first collection, and truthfully the best. Fountain pens don't have too much variety (except filling). Cameras can be expensive. But many people throw away the vacuums that they don't need. So what I am saying is, why can't we just cut it with the crude, black humor? Just imagine a bunch of boys in a locker room with a few innocent bystanders that hate gym for that reason. Not to be rude, but how would you feel hearing all of the stuff you would ever NOT want to hear?? It irritates me a lot to hear immature kids saying that. But to hear adults saying it...I don't know what to think! So PLEASE: hear my cry. I do have supporters, and we ALL (supporters that is) would like to get some change around here. I want to stay a part of this great, info-filled group as loing as possible. I really just don't want to hear the the bad parts of this...Is it really to much to ask??

Thanks for your post above. It took a lot of courage. I have to admit I have felt the same way often enough, but didn't think it my place to say it. With your post, I felt it appropriate to offer my support. Generally I found that our webmaster Fred has maintained helpful boundaries and I appreciate and commend him for that. It is definitely not easy to do that in any group and he has really put himself on the line more than once for the sake of propriety.

By and large I have to say that most posts are quite decent in every way and evidence a great deal of kindness and courtesy. Most of our members seem to be incredibly genersous people. Sometimes, however, things still get a little over the top [without any maliciousness intended, I'm sure] and I hope your words will be taken to heart and considered in the best possible light by all.

pete, good points about the washer site. lots of camp, lots of humor, lots of gay pride, lots of positivity, lots of FUN. folks seem to be able to talk about many provocative topics on that site without blatant bitchiness. whats wrong with that?

Nothing -- when it's appropriate. But as the old saying goes, "There's a time and a place for everything under the sun."

And there CERTAINLY are plenty of "appropriate" places on the Internet to find campy, racy, adult, off-color content for those who seek it.

But is a VACUUM CLEANER forum -- one that is patronized by children as well as people from many walks of life, all of whom are not "campers" [even some of the gay folks] -- REALLY the time and place for it, when it's so readily available in so many other places?

I just don't understand why "THAT" is the focal point (sometimes the ONLY focal point it seems) for some people. There's so much more to life. Why not evolve a little higher than your groins and experience life on a deeper level?

'nuff said ... I realize I am "preaching to the choir" with those who agree with me, and that those who don't agree just won't EVER get it and will continue on their merry way regardless of whom they make uncomfortable or offend ... or, in the case of children, corrupt.

I think we're getting our wires crossed here. I'm not talking about blatant vulgarities or locker room referencing of appliances to anatomy or acts or whatever which I don't think have any place here either seeing as they don't take any intelligence whatsoever to scribe. I'm talking about talking (in forum I guess "writing") the way people do talk carrying on a conversation and you get a feel for that persons personality. It doesn't have to be vulgar. And who determines what is pc or not..Heck I remember one receptionist we had at work, she got her knickers so tied up in a knot whenever a deliveryman or anyone for that fact called her "dear". She took huge offense to it. I asked her onetime about it if say for example she was in the lineup at the grocery and some nice little old lady said "oh you can get in front of me dear" if that would offend her, and I was astonished because she said it would. In her mind no one but her immediate family could use that term to reference her. Another girl in the office went so far as to ask management to order a coworker to remove a small framed picture 3x5 from his desk. What was the picture..his wife and toddler at the beach in their bathing suits sitting on the sand.. She thought it was disgusting to have a picture like that in an office environment. The complainer wasn't some old biddy either.

I think the reason that AW works is that certain topics are confined to certain areas. Example, all vintage washer talk is kept in the vintage forum and all the new washer talk is kept in the contemparary forum. Just like here in vacuum land. The fun stuff, off color humor, the gay benter ,all the off topic stuff is kept in the off topic forum. Which is why we call it OFF TOPIC forum. My suggestion for the minors is simple. If you want to know all about vacuums, and that is the reason you found this site, stay in the vintage and comtemparary forums. This is where you will learn about vacuums. Lets face it, we make friends on this site and we naturally will want to talk about things other than vacuums which was why the OFF TOPIC forum is established. We can chat, banter, just have a good time talking about anthing other than vacuums.

What we are currently trying to do is to get all the members to play nice on the vintage and contemparary forums to make reading and learning about vacuums a pleasant experience.

Again, it is my STRONG opinion that any minor or adult who takes offense at the cheery banter simply stay in the vintage/contemparary forums and out os the OFF TOPIC forums. Simple as that.

Marty

Well said Marty. That about sums it up.

One of the many little rules by which I, and I think most of us try to abide, is that bigotry and hate, even when allegedly couched in the guise of a joke is totally unacceptable under any conditions. Self-deprecation, although still in questionable taste, is a different story. It is commonly accepted that, for a few examples: an Irishman can tell Irish jokes, a Jew can tell Jewish jokes, and an African American can tell jokes about his own people. In these situations the teller has the discretion of deciding whether or not his potential audience will take his wit in the way he wishes them to or wether they will be offended or insulted. It is implied that, more often than not, the potential audience is of the same "group" as the racconteur.

I am clamoring onto this soapbox now, because of a very unnecassary and unpleasant experience some other members and I endured during this past weekend's mini meet here in St. Louis. Other than what I am about to describe, I want to stress that I had a delightful time at the mini meet. I meet some fine new people and had a chance to visit with some old friends over the roar of the Hoovers.

Although other members were as disgusted as was I, I am speaking here only for myself:

The joy and adventure of collecting and restoring vacuum cleaners has been near and dear to me for decades. It has been a constant and a comfort throughout those years. I'm sure I'm not the first to express how delighted and amazed I was to learn of the VCCC. . . Do you mean to say that I am not the only soul on the face of the earth who thinks of these machines as more than just cleaning equipment? As a result, I've been a proud and happy member now for about four years.

Unfortunately that pride and happiness took a drubbing at the mini meet.

I was outraged, insulted and mortified by two members at the mini meet, whom I do not wish to name, when they decided it was acceptable to make truly toxic anti-semitic and racist slurs thinly veiled as so-called "jokes." I deeply resented being forced to struggle not to have the entire weekend experience be ruined for me. I resented that I might be found guilty by association with these, incidentally, influential and long standing club members.

This sort of despicable behavior places a taint on the good name of the club, a reputation that, I feel, needs to be conscientiously defended as we grow.


As far as concerns sexual innuendo and other off-color silliness, it is my personal opinion that this website has now evolved into a very open and public place. It is simply unnecessary and is just plain BAD FORM to upload postings that may offend or trouble members or VISITORS to the site looking for insights about VACUUM CLEANERS. If you want to camp it up, by ALL means, go for it, but, do it via PRIVATE E-MAIL, and, if you need to share, CC a hand-picked list of friends. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD . . .SHOW SOME CLASS!

Martin Kaplan

That is EXACTLY my point, in three words.

EXTREMELY well said and I applaud you both (you know I love ya Charles). Martin, while I don't know you, I am glad to hear your weekend was not a total washout. However, sorry for your unfortunate experience. Very classy of you not to mention names.

Robb Castaldo

Marty...I appreciate your fine words on this subject. I think that out of all of the posts yours was the best said. "Class" means a lot of different things to different people. Some people will never be able to show it. I am glad to hear that you did have some fun this weekend. Racial slurs are definitely taboo and I agree that these things should be kept in LIKE company. I am so sorry that you had to go through this. There are GREAT people in this club. I know many of them and I am looking forward to forging new friendships with those I don't know personally yet. Our club is what we make of it so for God's sake SHOW SOME CLASS!

--Tom

Oh...Marty...I met and talked with you in St. Louis this summer...and yes you are a very classy person who made me as a new member feel very much at home. Thanks for your kind words then...just remember that you have class.

--Tom

Marty (eloxomarty): That is very selfish of you to say that, as this should be a place for everyone! Why can't we just have at least ONE place where no one is talking poorly about others or making crude remarks? That is very mean, as this forum, and more-so the Off-Topic forum, has a lot of my friends, as well as updates, that many people, including minors like me, need to know. Seriously: is it too much to ask just to watch what we type? We are either very careful, or we could care less. Why can't we all just be careful what we say? I say we should be courteous of others, as MANY people would like this change. Who wouldn't want courtesy? Maybe there should be rules to abide by. Just a thought...

This forum is about vacuum cleaners, not crude, racial remarks, or other innapropriate-for-this-website material. As a wise person on this forum said: save it for email.

I have to say something here that I think EVERYONE on this website and in this club could benefit from. I know there has been a lot of people saying a lot of things about each other and what they have done to tick each other off, and in Marty's case, a story that could have been considered in bad taste was told. (The story teller did not intend on hurting anyones feelings or offending anyone.) But in any case.. that event occured here in St. Louis and for it to be brought up on a forum to air to everyone was in my opinion, not necessary. What I do think should have happened, is that the the individuals offended should have pesonally and one on one confronted the offenders and worked it out together. That is part of the problem with folks on here not getting along; nobody has the gumption to pick up the phone or talk one on one with others. Nobody on here wants to read about everyone elses problems and disagreements. We are all adults and should all be capable of handling our own situations. This site is regarding vacuum cleaners, and is not a personal blog for users to vent their frustrations to others. There are plenty other places that you can do that. Get a page on myspace for that.. lol. Anyway.. hope everyone can understand this.

Derreck

That a boy! Well said, Derreck! :-)

Marty Rocha is exactly right! The design of this website came from AutomaticWasher.org. Robert, the webmaster very wisely set up three distinct areas of conversation and the Off-Topic Forum is just that, for all other conversations. That being said, it is still expected that everyone treat each other with dignity and respect and respect others opinions without attacking. Almost anything is allowed on the Off-Topic Forum except explicit sexual conversations, foul language and other unacceptable behavior. If don't feel that you can partake in a conversation without blowing up, stay away from it. It is easy to do. Thank you for your cooperation.

Fred

I don't think you and Marty are talking about the same story. I normally try and stay out of stuff like this; I'm a big wuss, I hate confrontation and I enjoy being friends with everybody. I never like to give the impression that I am taking a "side". What I am about to say is not directed at any person in particular. Rather it is my perspective on a situation that I never hope to experience again at a club event. What was said that afternoon was so crude, so tasteless and so trashy that it made my skin crawl. Furthermore, NO MEMBER of our club should ever have to be torn between the decision to stay or leave the days activities because of somebody elses offensive behavior. We all share an uncommon hobby and it's not everyday that we have the chance to get together with other collectors and share our passion.

If you were in the same room as a group of people and somebody said something that you found tasteless and outright offended another person, your uncomfortable silence could be mistaken as an endorsement of what was said. I cannot take the risk of being associated with the kinds of attitudes that were on display that afternoon. I apologize to anybody who feels this does not belong on our wonderful forum, but I cannot be silent any longer. I stand behind Marty on this.

I'm with you on being courteous. I didn't mean that the off topic forum should be set aside for a place to throw racial slurs and making crude remarks. I'm sorry you took it that way. Go look at AW's off topic forum. There are alot of different conversations going on there that are normal and fun. There are also adult conversations going on. When i say adult conversations I don't mean X rated. I mean conversations on relationships, housing, work, religion, that sort of thing. You are very mature for you age so i guess I don't have to tell you that there are a great number of gay men here. If the conversation goes something like this, " my boyfriend hates when i bring another dusty vacuum in the house so i have to sneak them in.." or " my boyfriend and i are going to paint the living room and we want suggestions" . Kyle, these are some of the conversations that go on and i just don't want someone to complain that there is too much "Gay Talk" going on. My advice to you then is to not go into that thread you may find offensive simply by the title of that thread. By all means, welcome to the off topic forum! I imagine there are plenty of things you could offer in any topic that occurs. But Kyle please don't think i was trying to say that the off topic forum was for the slutty talk, that's not what i meant at all. okay it may get MAY get the tiniest spicey, but not that bad to ruffle any feathers. I hope!

And don't call me selfish! I'm one of the nice guys here.

Marty ( RN, one of the more unselfish occupations around :)

And I can certainly attest to that. I have over the years gotten probably a dozen or so vacuum cleaners from him, and one beloved turquoise B8 Electrolux floor polisher -- the price is always his standard "fifteen dollars."

And I am not talking about junk here! Things like Kirby Classics complete and all original for example. I got a beautiful and shiny Classic Omega from him that I retrofitted with a disposable bag set and the improved four-row agitator and gave to the church where I was playing at the time.

The custodian there had been using some Gawd-awful beat-up plastic thing. I mean it was a true piece of, er, dreck! It was green and hideous-looking and hideous-sounding!

When I took that Kirby to the custodian, his eyes lit up like it was Christmas day. He was absolutely thrilled to have it, since its better performance and longer nozzle made shorter work out of vacuuming those acres and acres of blue orlon!

That church also has, or had, an old Royal that I never saw used. It was always standing in the closet in the narthex. It was that model from the late 50s (?) with a dark blue cloth bag and a hammertone blue motor housing.

... by this conversation. This thread confirms my belief that nearly all the folks here are good people. Martin Kaplan, you said it best -- show some class. And the vast majority of people on this forum do just that.

Rick

Well said Marty and I couln't agree more with You

Skip...

First of all -- Marty Rocha ROCKS! I didn't feel like the convention in St. Louis was officially underway until I saw him walk through the door. He's smart, creative, enthusiastic, GENEROUS and alot of fun.

Marty, you touched on an important point in your recent posting. That is that many, dare I say most of the members here are, in fact gay. We should feel ENCOURAGED to be open about the simple facts of and significant people in our lives. Just as straight people and couples share with friends and acquaintances what is appropriate for a given forum, it ought not be ANY different for gays. On that note, next March, my partner Bob Duffy and I will be celebrating our 18th "anniversary." To mark the occasion we just might go to dinner at a restaurant where you don't have to roll down your window to place your order!

Marty Kaplan

where being gay is much more freely accepted. And gays can legally be married and have all the benefits (health care, pension), etc. that goes with it. :-) I have thought of moving to the U.S. where it would be warmer and I wouldn't have to put up with our long, cold winters but not having the benefits I have here are a huge stumbling block.

Gary

I have had many couples from Denver here have thought about moving to Canada for just those reasons.

In our last election (11-04-06) they voted on same sex benifits and of course failed. The other one on the ballet was marriage should be between a man and a woman. Well as you can imagine it got voted through as well. But that is not by any means discouraging us we are still moving on and will still keep supporting and hopefully one day it will make it. Right now only Denver county will give same sex benefits to couples. And we can not be fired for just being a gay person. The does help and protect us. But in our subburbs, it does not help them.

As you probably heard our election was very hecteck. The lines were huge. Our small group of my choir was asked to come and preform at the last second for the people who were standing in that huge line. I sing in the Denver Gay Mens Chourus. We sounded pretty good and it did sound nice where we did sing.

I hope that some day things will be different here. It always feels like things might change and moving in a better direction.


David

I saw an article in the New York Times over this past weekend wherein it talked about straight couples in the U.S. who are "boycotting" getting married until it becomes legal across the nation for gays to do the same. If I recall correctly, one couple was from the S.F. Bay area, the other from Boston. . .no surprises there.

I've attached the link if anyone is interested.

Marty Kaplan

I took it all wrong. I really do apologize. It does help to read things TWICE!! You are a very nice guy, and truthfully, I was completely exaggerating on the selfishness. Once again, I am sorry for the discrepency. I love the off-topic forum. So, I am sorry, and I can't say that enough. I should be trying to make FRIENDS, not enemies. :-)!!

Very apologetic,
Kyle

that's really great that You admitted Your mistake and at times We all do it so be proud and I admire you for being upfront

Skip...

I appreciate it! It really helps ME too, to admit my mistakes. Nobody is perfect, as you can clearly see from my actions. And to know I did something GOOD by apologizing also makes me feel good, too! :-)

Kyle You are quite welcome:)
Skip...

I accept your apology and don't worry. We are good :)

Marty Kaplan, Thanks for the kind words. BTW, I found even more pictures from the St. Louis convention (if thats possible LOL )that i will send to you soon!

Marty Rocha ( the other Marty. Oprah? Uma. Uma? Oprah! see if anyone remembers that one!)